Did Islam experience a massive cover up?

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
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Aug 26, 2011
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40,898
#21
Notice the question mark in the OP? Whole point of this thread is to debate if indeed parts of Islamic history has been covered up. Some interesting counter articles you posted which as expected will come from an Islamic apologist who conveniently left out the balance of Doctrina Jacobis account.
I'm not really sure what you mean by 'covered up', tbh. By who? For what purpose? The historicity of religions' origins is a inherently tricky subject, with many murky (often contradictory) texts, timelines, characters, different methodological traditions etc.

FrankCastle said:
Heres the full account and not surprisingly Jacobi considers Muhammed to be a false prophet:
http://allanruhl.com/islam-and-the-doctrina-jacobi/
A Byzantine, Christian tract considers Mohammed to be a false prophet? Well, that's hardly surprising, wouldn't you say? I mean, it's Christianity's central position on Mohammed/Islam.

But why should the Doctrina Jacobi be valued higher than other sources of Islamic history that contradict it?

And if you dislike the response from 'Islamic apologists'*, why do you find a Catholic apologist's perspective particularly valuable?

* I don't think they are Islamic apologists, btw. David A. King is a historian of science (astronomy, specifically) and AJ Deus seems to be a researcher and historian with a particular interest in early Islamic history. He's posted a bunch of papers here on a variety of related topics. His review of Gibson's book is also worth reading.
 

Volksieboi

Expert Member
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Jul 14, 2014
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1,990
#22
From here: http://allanruhl.com/islam-and-the-doctrina-jacobi/

Can we retrieve any doctrine from this small passage? Yes. The passage says: “he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come.This is not part of Islamic theology. According to Islam, Jesus Christ is the Messiah(Hebrew for anointed one) and he came 600 years earlier. This is completely inconsistent with traditional Islamic origins.

The above is misleading.

Islam acknowledges Christ as the Messiah.
Quran confirms that Christ ascended and the Hadith confirm that he will return in the end times. This is one of the many similarities between Islam and Christianity. The above is not explicit as to which of 2 the advents of Christ was being proclaimed.

Edit: reference to the 2 advents of Christ.
 
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FrankCastle

Executive Member
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6,474
#23
Was this a cover up or a mistranslation regarding Muhammeds last sermon?


Traditional version from South African authority:
O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.
https://jamiat.org.za/prophet-muhammadsaws-last-sermon/

Version from Islamic historical sources:
"Now then, O people, you have a right over your wives and they have a right over you. You have [the right] that they should not cause anyone of whom you dislike to tread on your beds; and that they should not commit any open indecency (fāḥishah). If they do, then God permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain from [evil], they have the right to their food and clothing in accordance with custom (bi’l-ma‘rūf). Treat women well, for they are [like] prisoners ('awan) with you and do not possess anything for themselves. You have taken them only as a trust from God, and you have made the enjoyment of their persons lawful by the word of God, so understand and listen to my words, O people. I have conveyed the Message, and have left you with something which, if you hold fast to it, you will never go astray: that is, the Book of God and the sunnah of His Prophet.[14] Listen to my words, O people, for I have conveyed the Message and understand [it]. Know for certain that every Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, and that all Muslims are brethren. It is not lawful for a person [to take] from his brother except that which he has given him willingly, so do not wrong yourselves. O God, have I not conveyed the message?" It was reported [to me][note 1] that the people said, "O God, yes," and the Messenger of God said, "O God, bear witness."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_Sermon
 

wentworth65

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
496
#25
Was this a cover up or a mistranslation regarding Muhammeds last sermon?


Traditional version from South African authority:


https://jamiat.org.za/prophet-muhammadsaws-last-sermon/

Version from Islamic historical sources:
"Now then, O people, you have a right over your wives and they have a right over you. You have [the right] that they should not cause anyone of whom you dislike to tread on your beds; and that they should not commit any open indecency (fāḥishah). If they do, then God permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain from [evil], they have the right to their food and clothing in accordance with custom (bi’l-ma‘rūf). Treat women well, for they are [like] prisoners ('awan) with you and do not possess anything for themselves. You have taken them only as a trust from God, and you have made the enjoyment of their persons lawful by the word of God, so understand and listen to my words, O people. I have conveyed the Message, and have left you with something which, if you hold fast to it, you will never go astray: that is, the Book of God and the sunnah of His Prophet.[14] Listen to my words, O people, for I have conveyed the Message and understand [it]. Know for certain that every Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, and that all Muslims are brethren. It is not lawful for a person [to take] from his brother except that which he has given him willingly, so do not wrong yourselves. O God, have I not conveyed the message?" It was reported [to me][note 1] that the people said, "O God, yes," and the Messenger of God said, "O God, bear witness."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_Sermon
You are also misquoting frank. Original verse says Chastise. You twist every word to suit you. The liar that you are
 

FrankCastle

Executive Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
6,474
#27
I'm not really sure what you mean by 'covered up', tbh. By who? For what purpose? The historicity of religions' origins is a inherently tricky subject, with many murky (often contradictory) texts, timelines, characters, different methodological traditions etc.



A Byzantine, Christian tract considers Mohammed to be a false prophet? Well, that's hardly surprising, wouldn't you say? I mean, it's Christianity's central position on Mohammed/Islam.

But why should the Doctrina Jacobi be valued higher than other sources of Islamic history that contradict it?

And if you dislike the response from 'Islamic apologists'*, why do you find a Catholic apologist's perspective particularly valuable?

* I don't think they are Islamic apologists, btw. David A. King is a historian of science (astronomy, specifically) and AJ Deus seems to be a researcher and historian with a particular interest in early Islamic history. He's posted a bunch of papers here on a variety of related topics. His review of Gibson's book is also worth reading.
Forgot that you responded.

Totally agree that all religious sources are tainted but since we're discussing islam where muslims above all other faiths are more convinced and fanatical about their truth, to the degree that scrutiny or debate is met with fierce hostility and blatant denial. Another cover up that muslims fail to acknowledge is the history of the Kaaba.

Contradicting their own Koran, the numerous false claims made by muslims that Muhammed performed miracles trumps any account by a casual observer making one tract about him being a false prophet.

Thanks for the link - good read.
 
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