Dis-Chem not allowed to hire anymore white people for now

[Cosmik Debris]

I would have given it about two decades to accomplish it's goals, and then shelved it.
It really didn't need to go on longer than that.
20 years is one generation of workers coming through the workforce.
I can't imagine that it would take longer than that to redress Apartheid.
Anything longer than that would be an admission that the ANC really screwed something up in the economy.

Junk status within 30 years is that admission.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Affirmative Action is not socialism, not surprised you got it confused though.

It isn't? Tell me why not?

 

[Cosmik Debris]

It is really sad that Racial discrimination is legal.

Hopefully people will condemn it.

Not some on MyBB. They hate apartheid but condone racial legislation against a minority. What does that make them?

 

[LazyLion]

It isn't? Tell me why not?

Um, because it doesn't fit within the defition of Socialism.
It has nothing to do with Socialism. It's not an economic philosophy.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Um, because it doesn't fit within the defition of Socialism.
It has nothing to do with Socialism. It's not an economic philosophy.

Nothing to do with social engineering a specific race into the top echelons then? To get the desired hands on all the levers of power to ensure a politically connected elite through cadre deployment, loyalty to a party, race and nepotism?

Have you been advantaged by AA?

 

[LazyLion]

Nothing to do with social engineering a specific race into the top echelons then? To get the desired hands on all the levers of power to ensure a politically connected elite through cadre deployment, race and nepotism?

Have you been advantaged by AA?

OK, but what does that have to do with Socialism?

 

[R13...]

Nothing to do with social engineering a specific race into the top echelons then? To get the desired hands on all the levers of power to ensure a politically connected elite through cadre deployment, loyalty to a party, race and nepotism?

Have you been advantaged by AA?

So, the architects of apartheid and most of the big economies of this world were being socialist when they refused to let minorities get a look in? Minorities elsewhere in the world and majority here.

 

[Mista_Mobsta]

Yes.
We know.

You absolutely sure about that?

No.

By doing exactly the same thing.

Straight out the Bill of Rights:
"Equality 9.
(1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.
(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.
(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.
(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair."

The problem is the 'legislative and other measures' that the Government uses to promote the achievement of equality, are abused by those that form part of the 'categories of persons' in the labor market. The definitions of 'PDI/HDI' are also not concise nor applied correctly:

An Historically Disadvantaged Individual is defined as meaning: “a South African citizen who, due to the apartheid policy that had been in place, had no franchise in national elections prior to the introduction of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1983 (Act 110 of 1983) or the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act 200of 1993); and/or who is a female; and/or who has a disability, provided that a person who obtained South African citizenship on or after the coming into effect of the interim Constitution, is deemed not to be an HDI”

Judging by the above definition, anyone that wasn't able to vote during the apartheid years, falls into the category of HDI - this means that the current generation of young, born-free PDI's making their way into the labor market, do not belong to any designated group. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here...

 

[Cosmik Debris]

So, the architects of apartheid and most of the big economies of this world were being socialist when they refused to let minorities get a look in? Minorities elsewhere in the world and majority here.

Correct. The Nationalists stylised themselves as national socialists. Do I need to remind you of their loyalties in WW2?

 

[porchrat]

You and I know that as the net effect and the real outcome... but it doesn't change the intended effect of the original legislation.
There is nothing wrong with Affirmative Action as a laudable ideal.
Just because the ANC cocked it up doesn't mean it's wrong in it's ideals.

I disagree. It's racism.

Race should never have been a criterion for something like employment.

Set up proper schooling and support so that poor folks (regardless of race, but yes it's going to be almost exclusively black) have opportunities to create their own businesses and to compete in the job market on a more equal footing. Over time black folks will lift themselves. It's inevitable.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Straight out the Bill of Rights:
"Equality 9.
(1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.
(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.
(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.
(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair."

The problem is the 'legislative and other measures' that the Government uses to promote the achievement of equality, are abused by those that form part of the 'categories of persons' in the labor market. The definitions of 'previously disadvantaged individuals' are also not concise nor applied correctly

Yes. highly controversial and open to interpretation by whoever is in power at the time.

 

[Mista_Mobsta]

Yes. highly controversial and open to interpretation by whoever is in power at the time.

Unfortunate as it is, the law isn't always clear cut black and white. What gets me the most is the definition of a PDI places its own sunset clause on the BBBEE and AA system:

"a South African citizen who, due to the apartheid policy that had been in place, had no franchise in national elections prior to the introduction of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1983 (Act 110 of 1983) or the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act 200of 1993)..."

Am I really the only person here who realises that any 'born frees' who claim to be from a designated group by virtue of being of a particular race/color, is by definition excluded based on their age?

 

[Cosmik Debris]

I disagree. It's racism.

Race should never have been a criterion for something like employment.

Set up proper schooling and support so that poor folks (regardless of race, but yes it's going to be almost exclusively black) have opportunities to create their own businesses and to compete in the job market on a more equal footing. Over time black folks will lift themselves. It's inevitable.

Yet, after 30 years and the biggest per capita education budget in the world, schools still have pit toilets.

 

[LazyLion]

I disagree. It's racism.

Race should never have been a criterion for something like employment.

Set up proper schooling and support so that poor folks (regardless of race, but yes it's going to be almost exclusively black) have opportunities to create their own businesses and to compete in the job market on a more equal footing. Over time black folks will lift themselves. It's inevitable.

You're welcome to disagree, and I agree that would have been a good thing to do, but in the short term you have to agree that affirmative action is a quick way to redress past injustices in hiring practices. And if it's done right it means that qualified candidates can be quickly placed into suitable employment positions. It doesn't mean you have to hire unqualified people.

 

[R13...]

Correct. The Nationalists stylised themselves as national socialists. Do I need to remind you of their loyalties in WW2?

They must have had loyalties with the other practitioners of AA like the US, UK, etc, yes?

 

[porchrat]

Yet, after 30 years and the biggest per capita education budget in the world, schools still have pit toilets.

Yea but that's the ANC screwing up.

I said they have to improve the education system, not spend lots of money on the education department so it can buy lots of new BMWs for all the civil "servants".

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Unfortunate as it is, the law isn't always clear cut black and white. What gets me the most is the definition of a PDI places its own sunset clause on the BBBEE and AA system:

"a South African citizen who, due to the apartheid policy that had been in place, had no franchise in national elections prior to the introduction of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1983 (Act 110 of 1983) or the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act 200of 1993)..."

So, anyone born after 1993 can't be classed as a PDI then and should not be able to reap benefits of BEE nor AA.

Tell that to the presently disadvantaged kids in white squatter camps who are there because of AA and BEE against their parents.

 

[porchrat]

You're welcome to disagree, and I agree that would have been a good thing to do, but in the short term you have to agree that affirmative action is a quick way to redress past injustices in hiring practices. And if it's done right it means that qualified candidates can be quickly placed into suitable employment positions. It doesn't mean you have to hire unqualified people.

It only helps a tiny minority of people. A significant portion of people in this country are unskilled and largely unemployable.

Forcing quotas for example is also a good way to end up with something like Eskom as companies scramble to hire anyone with the right melanin content often regardless of skill (especially given the tiny skills pool in this country).

EDIT: don't get me wrong. I understand that you're suggesting precisely that we don't do this... it's just that it helps so few people that it's largely irrelevant. The only way you're really going to help the people of this country is by actually helping the average person in this country... and the average person isn't some accountant or file clerk or something not getting a job over some other candidate because he/she is black (which is realistically all AA is going to impact).

 

[Cosmik Debris]

They must have had loyalties with the other practitioners of AA like the US, UK, etc, yes?

Who are the "they" you refer to? The Nats?

 

[GhostSixFour]

Yet, after 30 years and the biggest per capita education budget in the world, schools still have pit toilets.

The what now? Is this for real? In like dollar terms?