Puk

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Jun 8, 2013
Messages
149
It may be worth chatting to your own insurance in this regard to possibly fight the fight for you.

But I would just take it up the ranks with FNB until I get resolution.

If it happened a week or 10 days after delivery sure they could argue it was you, but to have you report it literally the next day should make it pretty clear cut.

Tried Twitter?
Thanks for the advice. It is really appreciated. For now, I'll allow FNB to investigate my counter-complaint and see what they come up with. For interest's sake, I asked them how they can prove it was me who caused the damage and not the courier company - they replied that there were fingerprints where the crack is (which they see as proof of me applying pressure to the screen which caused it to crack). I then replied - of course my fingerprints are around the damaged area. I inspected to see where the crack was (with my fingers) after I saw the damage after switching the TV on. Perhaps they're deliberating about that now and hopefully come back with favourable feedback.
 

Fulcrum29

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It sounds more like a courier problem than an FNB Connect problem, as much as they are going about this the wrong way.

The claim for damages should/can be made against the courier and really FNB should be the ones sorting that out though.

Someone in the eBucks thread also had a cracked TV arrive at their home and I recall it was no problem at all to get it swopped out, but that was of course a "cash" purchase and not contracted.

It sounds to me like you are fighting the contracts department instead of the delivery department.

Good luck.
In contractual terms, the purchase agreement is between the seller and the buyer. The courier agreement is with the party who contracted with them. They have a waybill, which isn’t a contract nor a negotiable instrument, and one party may sign insurance, or general risk coverage, with the courier and that is it. In this case, the seller will be responsible to deliver the goods in good order, irrelevant whether it was damaged in shipment. The buyer has the CPA, they may return the product within 5 days and FNB must abide by those terms. It is also the buyer’s responsibility to accept the goods in good order. No one can claim damages against the courier, good luck with that. FNB will need to sort the issue out on their side, whether it is with mishandling the goods under their supervision or with the supplier where the goods may also have been damaged.

Under the best circumstances, it is best to return the goods immediately with the courier upon delivery when anything wrong with the goods is noticed. The purchaser needs to inspect the goods upon delivery, yes, not many people does this (which is similar to people ignoring the terms and conditions when signing away). It is still, in the end, FNB’s responsibility to adhere to the CPA (and there is no way around it).
 

Puk

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I've ordered a smart TV and a high spec laptops from them and I've had nothing but good service. I had an issue with the laptop which was sorted in 2 days.
I agree with you. I ordered four other devices from them previously and apart from issues with the courier, I've been very satisfied. That's why I went back to them to order this TV. I perhaps have had bad luck with a damaged device being delivered, but I honestly expected FNB to take my side of the story into account. Instead they concluded I was guilty and have to pay for something I never used.

I don't blame their whole Connect department, rather the way they have decided to deal with my specific case. And my warning is this: Think twice from ordering from FNB Connect, because IF you find yourself in this situation I am now in, you can only hope FNB is reasonable. Because the decision is theirs if they want to screw you over or be lenient and understanding of the true facts of the matter.
 

3WA

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Under the best circumstances, it is best to return the goods immediately with the courier upon delivery when anything wrong with the goods is noticed. The purchaser needs to inspect the goods upon delivery, yes, not many people does this (which is similar to people ignoring the terms and conditions when signing away). It is still, in the end, FNB’s responsibility to adhere to the CPA (and there is no way around it).
Does this mean that when you buy a TV, the courier is meant to wait with you while you unbox it and set it up? I didn't realise that, but good to know.
 

Puk

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149
In contractual terms, the purchase agreement is between the seller and the buyer. The courier agreement is with the party who contracted with them. They have a waybill, which isn’t a contract nor a negotiable instrument, and one party may sign insurance, or general risk coverage, with the courier and that is it. In this case, the seller will be responsible to deliver the goods in good order, irrelevant whether it was damaged in shipment. The buyer has the CPA, they may return the product within 7 days and FNB must abide by those terms. It is also the buyer’s responsibility to accept the goods in good order. No one can claim damages against the courier, good luck with that. FNB will need to sort the issue out on their side, whether it is with mishandling the goods under their supervision or with the supplier where the goods may also have been damaged.

Under the best circumstances, it is best to return the goods immediately with the courier upon delivery when anything wrong with the goods is noticed. The purchaser needs to inspect the goods upon delivery, yes, not many people does this (which is similar to people ignoring the terms and conditions when signing away). It is still, in the end, FNB’s responsibility to adhere to the CPA (and there is no way around it).
Thank you for this clarification. In this instance, however, the courier was late by 3 days. He arrived at 16:30 on a Friday (after I got in contact with them by some luck). Should I have compelled him to stick around while I set up an enormous 55" TV and keep him up another half an hour to an hour to supervise the installation? Time did not allow.
 

Fulcrum29

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Yes, in this instance I ordered an FNB Smart Device from FNB Connect - not through the eBucks shop. It is a contract problem, correct. But then again that is implied. They isolate the delivery department completely from consumers - I can only converse with the contracts department. And they phoned this morning with the news that their technician had concluded I had caused the damage and will have to pay for a product I never used.

This is my warning to other consumers. While the consumer act can protect you for pre-purchased products, it does not seem like you have real rights when it comes to contractual orders. It's entirely FNB's prerogative to decide who is guilty and who should pay, never mind the circumstances.
The CPA also applies to services. Just remind them of the terms,

https://www.michalsons.com/blog/returns-under-the-consumer-protection-act/9191

When a consumer can return goods under the CPA
Generally speaking, there are only four instances when a consumer can return goods under the CPA.

1) The direct marketing “cooling-off” period
In terms of s16 of the CPA, if a consumer has bought goods as a result of direct marketing, then for a period of 5 days after receiving the goods, the consumer can:

  • return the goods,
  • cancel the entire contract without penalty, and
  • receive a full refund.
The consumer will have to pay the costs to return the goods.

2) Goods which have not been seen before purchase
In terms of s20 (read with s19) of the CPA, if a consumer has not had the opportunity to examine or inspect the actual goods received before purchase, they are entitled to inspect the goods on delivery. If on this initial inspection they find that:

  • the goods do not meet the ‘type’ or ‘quality’ they could reasonably expect from the agreement; or
  • if the goods where made in terms of a special or ‘custom’ order, and they goods do not reasonably conform to the specifications of the order,
then:

  • the consumer can refuse delivery,
  • receive a full refund, and
  • the consumer can cancel without penalty.
The supplier will have to pay the costs to return the goods.
The mechanism you use is the CGSO,

http://www.cgso.org.za/
 

SauRoNZA

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33,772
Thank you for this clarification. In this instance, however, the courier was late by 3 days. He arrived at 16:30 on a Friday (after I got in contact with them by some luck). Should I have compelled him to stick around while I set up an enormous 55" TV and keep him up another half an hour to an hour to supervise the installation? Time did not allow.
Your initial post made it sound like they came to install it, now it’s a bit more clear.

That being said one can only wonder where the TV was for those three days and likely exactly when it got damaged.
 

Fulcrum29

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Messages
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Does this mean that when you buy a TV, the courier is meant to wait with you while you unbox it and set it up? I didn't realise that, but good to know.
The consumer is by law entitled to inspect the goods upon delivery.
 

3WA

Executive Member
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Sep 25, 2012
Messages
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The consumer is by law entitled to inspect the goods upon delivery.
Entitled, yes, but obligated? Comparatively, in a store, the customer would be happy to remove the goods if the factory seal is in place (they wouldn't open up the box on the shop floor). If the goods are damaged, they could bring them back to the store. So I figured it would be okay, by the same reasoning, to sign for delivered goods if the box was factory sealed.
 

STORMERSFAN

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Feb 13, 2016
Messages
662
Hi mybroadband,

Like the subject, if you're thinking about ordering anything through FNB Connect (FNB Smart Devices) - think twice.

I ordered a Samsung 55" TV from them about a month ago. It arrived three days later than the date we had agreed up - meaning I ended up taking two days off of work to receive the TV (you have to have certain documents that any person can't just have to receive it in your place).

It arrived on a Friday afternoon at roughly 16:30. It took me and another person roughly half an hour to set up the TV and turn it on. Upon turning it on, there were black blotches on the right side of the screen. Upon closer inspection, we noticed a fine crack running from the top right frame toward the centre of the screen.

We promptly boxed it up again and I contacted FNB in two separate emails (explaining the situation). I couldn't get through to their call centre as it was already after hours (due to the courier arriving late).

Long story short - the TV stood here for another week until they came to pick it up. Then they took roughly a week to have it evaluated by a technician.

The technician said the TV has physical damage (duh) and I (as the client) am now liable for almost R 10 000.00 worth of a device I only switched on ONCE.

This despite having a witness and the paper trail of emails I sent. Above and beyond that, there are YouTube videos of the particular TV model (and size) I bought that come with broken screens in the box. Unlike FNB, the people in the video got their TV replaced by the retailer. Here's a link:

View attachment 676355

Does anyone have any advice? Or any idea how I can challenge this? Surely there must be some consumer protection mechanism I can trigger to keep them from forcing this on me?

Thanks in advance.
If u don't mind me asking.. Why didn't u check the TV while the courier was there.. That's what Vodacom and their delivery company aka digital planet made me do.. When I bought another TV at game 6 weeks ago they physically opened the TV in front of me and made me check that the screen was fine and everything was in order.. Not blami g u at all.. I'm sure you'll check next time. Good luck.. Hope they get it sorted
 

Boris Becker

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Mar 23, 2012
Messages
1,055
Thanks for the advice. It is really appreciated. For now, I'll allow FNB to investigate my counter-complaint and see what they come up with. For interest's sake, I asked them how they can prove it was me who caused the damage and not the courier company - they replied that there were fingerprints where the crack is (which they see as proof of me applying pressure to the screen which caused it to crack). I then replied - of course my fingerprints are around the damaged area. I inspected to see where the crack was (with my fingers) after I saw the damage after switching the TV on. Perhaps they're deliberating about that now and hopefully come back with favourable feedback.
Remember that you need to submit insurance claims within 30 days of the incident. I mention this because they are dragging their feet and the time can easily pass.
 

naasier

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Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
204
I also had a bad experience: I ordered their Connexis X2 device early January 2019 seeing that its free with level 5 ebucks. I took a screenshot that they advertised it in their promotions tab online showing the date and from the FNB website (learned my lesson with Vodacom Black Friday).
I got debited twice and contacted FNB. The FNB premier suite said the phone is free, FNB connect were unsure and ebucks said it was free (I didnt have the recordings).
Long story short FNB blamed the consultant who gave me phone (even though I had the screenshot), I could keep the phone and be debited monthly or give it back and cancel the contract with no refund.
FNB doesnt have a clue whats going on and the connect call centre is useless with dropped calls and forwarding your call to irrelevant departments.
 

Fulcrum29

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Jun 25, 2010
Messages
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But there was no direct marketing here, so the cooling off period doesn’t apply.
The Michalsons blog on this isn't very detailed, but I had to include direct marketing as it also applies to electronic communications and also touches base with the ECT Act, but doesn't apply when section 44 (ECT) is applied to the transaction. When receiving an FNB Connect promotional email it is direct marketing in these terms. Note that I have mistakenly quoted 5 days, but it should have been 10 days under the correct circumstances,

It is the CPA which needs to be looked at,

https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201409/321864670.pdf (PDF)

Consumer’s right to return goods 20.

(1) This section is in addition to and not in substitution for—
(a) the right to return unsafe or defective goods, contemplated in section 56; or
(b) any other right in law between a supplier and consumer to return goods and receive a refund.


(2) Subject to subsections (3) to (6), the consumer may return goods to the supplier, and receive a full refund of any consideration paid for those goods, if the supplier has delivered—
(a) goods to the consumer in terms of an agreement arising out of direct marketing, and the consumer has rescinded that agreement during the coolingoff period, in accordance with section 16;
(b) goods that the consumer did not have an opportunity to examine before delivery, and the consumer has rejected delivery of those goods for any of the reasons contemplated in section 19(5);
(c) a mixture of goods, and the consumer has refused delivery of any of those goods, as contemplated in section 19(8); or
(d) goods intended to satisfy a particular purpose communicated to the supplier as contemplated in section 55(3), and within 10 business days after delivery to 56 5 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 the consumer, the goods have been found to be unsuitable for that particular purpose.

(3) Subsection (2) does not apply with respect to any goods if—
(a) for reasons of public health or otherwise, a public regulation prohibits the return of those goods to a supplier once they have been supplied to, or at the direction of, a consumer; or
(b) after having been supplied to, or at the direction of, the consumer, the goods have been partially or entirely disassembled, physically altered, permanently installed, affixed, attached, joined or added to, blended or combined with, or embedded within, other goods or property.

(4) Goods returnable in terms of—
(a) subsection (2)(a) must be returned to the supplier at the consumer’s risk and expense; or
(b) subsection (2)(b) to (d) must be returned to the supplier at the supplier’s risk and expense, within 10 business days after delivery to the consumer.


(5) Upon return of any goods in terms of this section, the supplier must refund to the consumer the price paid for the goods, less any amount that may be charged in terms of subsection (6).

(6) In determining the right of a supplier to impose a charge contemplated in subsection (5), if any goods returned to the supplier in terms of this section are—
(a) in the original unopened packaging, the supplier may not charge the consumer any amount in respect of the goods;
(b) in their original condition and repackaged in their original packaging, the supplier may charge the consumer a reasonable amount for—
(i) use of the goods during the time they were in the consumer’s possession, unless they are goods that are ordinarily consumed or depleted by use, and no such consumption or depletion has occurred; or
(ii) any consumption or depletion of the goods, unless that consumption or depletion is limited to a reasonable amount necessary to determine whether the goods were acceptable to the consumer; or
(c) in any other case, the supplier may charge the consumer a reasonable amount—
(i) as contemplated in paragraph (b); and
(ii) for necessary restoration costs to render the goods fit for re-stocking, unless, having regard to the nature of the goods, and the manner in which they were packaged, it was necessary for the consumer to destroy the packaging in order to determine whether the goods—
(aa) conformed to the description or sample provided, in the case of goods that had not been examined by the consumer before delivery, as contemplated in subsection (2)(b); or (bb) were fit for the intended purpose, in a case contemplated in subsection (2)(d).
Do read section 19 as well.

For good measure, here is the ECT Act: https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201409/a25-02.pdf (PDF)

Reading that, some webmasters will quickly notice that their websites don't abide by the law.
 

Fulcrum29

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Messages
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Entitled, yes, but obligated? Comparatively, in a store, the customer would be happy to remove the goods if the factory seal is in place (they wouldn't open up the box on the shop floor). If the goods are damaged, they could bring them back to the store. So I figured it would be okay, by the same reasoning, to sign for delivered goods if the box was factory sealed.
Like I said, under the best circumstances. You have the CPA, use it. When a dispute arises, you did had the privilege to inspect those goods on delivery. Many vendors play nice, most returns that I have experienced was inspected and where due replaced in good faith without ever being inspected by the purchaser before the acceptance of the delivery. The CPA and ECT Act protect both sides of the fence.
 
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Fulcrum29

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Your initial post made it sound like they came to install it, now it’s a bit more clear.

That being said one can only wonder where the TV was for those three days and likely exactly when it got damaged.
I also gathered that from the first post, hence I brought up the inspection of the goods.
 

Hellhound105

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If u don't mind me asking.. Why didn't u check the TV while the courier was there.. That's what Vodacom and their delivery company aka digital planet made me do.. When I bought another TV at game 6 weeks ago they physically opened the TV in front of me and made me check that the screen was fine and everything was in order.. Not blami g u at all.. I'm sure you'll check next time. Good luck.. Hope they get it sorted
Its the small things, yes. I never check the goods when received by courier. But reading stuff like this makes me change my ways
 

Fulcrum29

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Its the small things, yes. I never check the goods when received by courier. But reading stuff like this makes me change my ways
I always say, companies with sales and marketing teams should make the effort for sending those staff on a short-course or workshop for understanding mercantile law. Like when signing agreements, it is the seller’s responsibility towards the buyer for comprehending the terms of the sale or contract. How many times have you renewed your cellular contract with the sales representative only turning over the pages for your signature without explaining anything?

Simple things which are critical.
 

Charlesjjm

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Dec 2, 2014
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Entitled, yes, but obligated? Comparatively, in a store, the customer would be happy to remove the goods if the factory seal is in place (they wouldn't open up the box on the shop floor). If the goods are damaged, they could bring them back to the store. So I figured it would be okay, by the same reasoning, to sign for delivered goods if the box was factory sealed.
When I bought TVs from the Samsung Store last year, they opened the box right there and powered it on. We both check the screen for cracks and dead pixels. After that I signed the delivery note, then they sealed it again and I took it home. That is the way to go, and it does not take that long.
 

3WA

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Messages
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When I bought TVs from the Samsung Store last year, they opened the box right there and powered it on. We both check the screen for cracks and dead pixels. After that I signed the delivery note, then they sealed it again and I took it home. That is the way to go, and it does not take that long.
Didn't realise that happened. I thought opening up big TV boxes (55 inch etc.) was a rather lengthy process. I didn't check mine beforehand, but just got lucky that it was in good condition.
 
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