Do you know any one who has emigrated??

[w1z4rd]

I doubt R20 000 would cover a single garage in the north west

R20k a month...

 

[wolverine_dcp]

Have some friends and family who went and stayed overseas, others who went and decided to come back. Where your family is makes a big difference. Most of our family is in SA so we are sticking it out here. About 5 years ago I had an itch to go as did my wife so before we started our family we went to scope it out. In all places we went we found there where issues even if they where very different to the issues we face here. The biggest issue we found was that many of our family/friends who had gone over struggled to make friends over there as they where viewed as lower class emigrants in some respects.

We had no issue after that trip in deciding to make a go of it in SA. Provided the government does not break any of the following for me I will remain:
1. Can't live reasonably safely here
2. Can't find affordable education for my kids
3. Can't get decent medical care
4. Respect of private property laws
5. Can't find employment due to skin colour
6. Julius Malema or his like is not president

For now I can get all of the above here with some planning and reasonable effort so I remain. If Malema or a Malema like figure gets in power I am out of here and when I go I will try persaude my entire family to follow so that we can set up a new support base somewhere else.

+100000000

 

[SoulTax]

I guess the real estate pricing Im looking at online is wrong then. 2 million here buys a lot more than 200 000 pounds there. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong places? Where do you get this really affordable housing from in the UK? Which property mag?

Could you link something to give an example?

If you take 200 000 pounds and decide to buy a house with it in the UK. Then compare that house to the house you would get for 3.5 million rand (Exchange rate), the SA house would be vastly superior. That is a straight up fact.

The difference though. Is that to earn enough money to buy a 200 000 pound house, You only need a family income of around 42 000 per year. Which is pretty damn simple for most people to achieve. Most single professionals can afford that without too many issues.

However, to earn enough money to buy a 3.5 million rand house in SA. You would need to be able to afford a 40 000 rand per month bond. Plus all of the security (Not needed in the UK) Insurance (Much less in the UK because of the crime rate being lower). Even if we ignore the cost of medical aid and other such financial drains that SA has, that the UK does not; You need to be pushing around 1.5 million rand per year, as a household, at least to be able to afford that.

A single professional earning 1.5 million per month is pretty rare in SA. Even a household earning that amount is pretty rare. And if you could earn that amount in SA. Your household in the UK would probably be sitting on about 140 000 pounds per year. Translate that into your buying power in the UK and you will see that you can buy a veritable Manor house. One with a garden size, comparable to the 3.5 million house in SA.

Now sure the style of houses might be different. And one might choose the SA house over the UK house on pure aesthetic appeal. But we don't choose our homes on visual alone. It is also about what the area has to offer.
No matter how you cut it, the UK offers more safety and security; more peace of mind. It allows you to take advantage of your home. By not needing to put up 10ft walls with electric fencing and movement sensors. By allowing kids to play in the park down the street until the late evening. By allowing you to go running/cycling/walking through the countryside, with your biggest fear being that you will run into a chatty old woman walking her dog.

The UK homes might not look as nice as the SA homes. I will concede that point on 90% of the choices out there. But the UK homes allow you to live with far less stress. They look smaller, and they are, but they feel 10 times bigger when you are living in them. Because the street in front of your house, the field behind it and the community park across the road, all feel like they are extensions of your living space.
You simply need to adapt to that lifestyle and take advantage of it. Keeping the SA lifestyle in the UK is impossible and a 1 way ticket to depression.

So the house prices in the UK are inflated to match the average income of the population.

 

[Midnight_choir_drunk]

If you take 200 000 pounds and decide to buy a house with it in the UK. Then compare that house to the house you would get for 3.5 million rand (Exchange rate), the SA house would be vastly superior. That is a straight up fact.

The difference though. Is that to earn enough money to buy a 200 000 pound house, You only need a family income of around 42 000 per year. Which is pretty damn simple for most people to achieve. Most single professionals can afford that without too many issues.

However, to earn enough money to buy a 3.5 million rand house in SA. You would need to be able to afford a 40 000 rand per month bond. Plus all of the security (Not needed in the UK) Insurance (Much less in the UK because of the crime rate being lower). Even if we ignore the cost of medical aid and other such financial drains that SA has, that the UK does not; You need to be pushing around 1.5 million rand per year, as a household, at least to be able to afford that.

A single professional earning 1.5 million per month is pretty rare in SA. Even a household earning that amount is pretty rare. And if you could earn that amount in SA. Your household in the UK would probably be sitting on about 140 000 pounds per year. Translate that into your buying power in the UK and you will see that you can buy a veritable Manor house. One with a garden size, comparable to the 3.5 million house in SA.

Now sure the style of houses might be different. And one might choose the SA house over the UK house on pure aesthetic appeal. But we don't choose our homes on visual alone. It is also about what the area has to offer.
No matter how you cut it, the UK offers more safety and security; more peace of mind. It allows you to take advantage of your home. By not needing to put up 10ft walls with electric fencing and movement sensors. By allowing kids to play in the park down the street until the late evening. By allowing you to go running/cycling/walking through the countryside, with your biggest fear being that you will run into a chatty old woman walking her dog.

The UK homes might not look as nice as the SA homes. I will concede that point on 90% of the choices out there. But the UK homes allow you to live with far less stress. They look smaller, and they are, but they feel 10 times bigger when you are living in them. Because the street in front of your house, the field behind it and the community park across the road, all feel like they are extensions of your living space.
You simply need to adapt to that lifestyle and take advantage of it. Keeping the SA lifestyle in the UK is impossible and a 1 way ticket to depression.

So the house prices in the UK are inflated to match the average income of the population.

You are asking the question in the wrong way. The 200k house in the Uk is a modest home. Ask rather what you would pay for an equally modest home in S.A. Then look at afforability relative to what we earn here. The middle classed South African will pay off a house of equal "value" here before someone in the Uk will.

 

[w1z4rd]

If you take 200 000 pounds and decide to buy a house with it in the UK. Then compare that house to the house you would get for 3.5 million rand (Exchange rate), the SA house would be vastly superior. That is a straight up fact.

The difference though. Is that to earn enough money to buy a 200 000 pound house, You only need a family income of around 42 000 per year. Which is pretty damn simple for most people to achieve. Most single professionals can afford that without too many issues.

However, to earn enough money to buy a 3.5 million rand house in SA. You would need to be able to afford a 40 000 rand per month bond. Plus all of the security (Not needed in the UK) Insurance (Much less in the UK because of the crime rate being lower). Even if we ignore the cost of medical aid and other such financial drains that SA has, that the UK does not; You need to be pushing around 1.5 million rand per year, as a household, at least to be able to afford that.

A single professional earning 1.5 million per month is pretty rare in SA. Even a household earning that amount is pretty rare. And if you could earn that amount in SA. Your household in the UK would probably be sitting on about 140 000 pounds per year. Translate that into your buying power in the UK and you will see that you can buy a veritable Manor house. One with a garden size, comparable to the 3.5 million house in SA.

Now sure the style of houses might be different. And one might choose the SA house over the UK house on pure aesthetic appeal. But we don't choose our homes on visual alone. It is also about what the area has to offer.
No matter how you cut it, the UK offers more safety and security; more peace of mind. It allows you to take advantage of your home. By not needing to put up 10ft walls with electric fencing and movement sensors. By allowing kids to play in the park down the street until the late evening. By allowing you to go running/cycling/walking through the countryside, with your biggest fear being that you will run into a chatty old woman walking her dog.

The UK homes might not look as nice as the SA homes. I will concede that point on 90% of the choices out there. But the UK homes allow you to live with far less stress. They look smaller, and they are, but they feel 10 times bigger when you are living in them. Because the street in front of your house, the field behind it and the community park across the road, all feel like they are extensions of your living space.
You simply need to adapt to that lifestyle and take advantage of it. Keeping the SA lifestyle in the UK is impossible and a 1 way ticket to depression.

So the house prices in the UK are inflated to match the average income of the population.

Hi thanks for that, but I reduced the price, and housing examples I showed were around 2 million which is a R19000 bond. According to Sinbad a 200 000 pound house in the UK will probably have a bond of around 1800 pounds. My point was you can get a much better house for 2 million rand here than you can for 200 000 pounds there. So basically you can buy twice the house for almost half the price

I was not doing exact conversion rates. However, now that you bring it up, I see that 2 million translates into a little over 100 000 pounds. Show me a house I can buy like this:

http://www.property24.com/for-sale/...bay/eastern-cape/10545/101960135?Branded=true

For 120 000 pounds in the UK. When you realize you cant find something that nice at anywhere near that price, you will understand my point.

 

[Willie Trombone]

Here's another little test...
Open google maps, navigate to the UK, drop the little street view man somewhere...
Look up at the sky.
The question is... are you feeling lucky?
I got grey skies lol.

 

[S1ght]

Hi thanks for that, but I reduced the price, and housing examples I showed were around 2 million which is a R19000 bond. According to Sinbad a 200 000 pound house in the UK will probably have a bond of around 1800 pounds. My point was you can get a much better house for 2 million rand here than you can for 200 000 pounds there. So basically you can buy twice the house for almost half the price

I was not doing exact conversion rates. However, now that you bring it up, I see that 2 million translates into a little over 100 000 pounds. Show me a house I can buy like this:

http://www.property24.com/for-sale/...bay/eastern-cape/10545/101960135?Branded=true

For 120 000 pounds in the UK. When you realize you cant find something that nice at anywhere near that price, you will understand my point.

What was your original point again? Sorry, not going to look through all the pages to find it

I agree that R2 million in SA gets you much more than R2 million in the UK but I'm sure you understand why doing direction conversions like this don't really work to prove anything? I think SoulTax explained quite clearly the difference in how much effort it is to earn that in SA vs the UK.

 

[SoulTax]

Hi thanks for that, but I reduced the price, and housing examples I showed were around 2 million which is a R19000 bond. According to Sinbad a 200 000 pound house in the UK will probably have a bond of around 1800 pounds.

If that is what Sinbad said, then he is just plain wrong. The bond on a 200 000 pound house is only 900 pounds or so. Depending on your interest rate.

 

[SoulTax]

You are asking the question in the wrong way. The 200k house in the Uk is a modest home. Ask rather what you would pay for an equally modest home in S.A. Then look at afforability relative to what we earn here. The middle classed South African will pay off a house of equal "value" here before someone in the Uk will.

Wrong.
Earning potential in the UK is higher, so it compensates for the inflated house price. A bond on a £200k home in the UK is worth 35% of my take home.
In SA for 35% of my take home, I would be able to buy a R900k house.

Then consider that the interest rates are lower in the UK, so where you will pay 230% of your house value by the time you pay it off in 20 years. I will only pay around 150%.
Then consider that the 65% take home that I have left after my monthly payment:
Does not have to pay for medical aid
Does not have to pay for school fees
Does not have to pay for home and car security
Pays a smaller percentage towards:
Life insurance (Because the UK is safer, less risk to life, less cost of life insurance)
Household insurance (Lower crime rate and B and E is basically non existent in the UK).

That means that the person in the UK has a larger percentage of available cash left after all is paid for. Leaving them with more money to throw into their homeloan to pay it off earlier. (If they were so inclined)

In the UK, if I chose not to pay anything extra into the homeloan, I would only be paying 50% more money in interest, over the loan period.
In SA, chosing not to pay extra will result in paying 130% more money than the home is worth.. (UK wins this scenario)
If we compare who can pay their home off earlier. UK wins again because they have more money left to put away.

 

[Sinbad]

If that is what Sinbad said, then he is just plain wrong. The bond on a 200 000 pound house is only 900 pounds or so. Depending on your interest rate.

I'm pretty sure I said a 280k bond on a 300k house. Was worked out as a first time buyer.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Interesting thread. I've been researching the idea of moving to Australia over the last couple of weeks

For anyone who does happen to post their (or friends) experiences of moving overseas, any chance you could be specific about what made you return or stay?

Unfortunately when you haven't traveled much, when people say how much better it is in the 1st world it's a bit difficult to grasp since SA is pretty much all I know From brief conversations with colleagues at work, they all seem to say the biggest factor is the stress factor and how you don't realise how much you're on edge when you're in SA. For instance the 1 guy visited the UK for a few weeks and he said the moment he got back, he immediately noticed how quickly at to switch back to being more aware of what was going on around him...Maybe that's just Johannesburg though?

http://www.saaustralia.org/

 

[cguy]

There seems to be a lot of discussion on the subjective "value" of property here. I just wanted to add that for many the value of a house is not just about its size, aesthetic appeal or proximity to the beach (all of these are perfectly valid of course, just saying that relative importance is subjective). One of the reasons for paying the premium prices for houses overseas is access: e.g., flying to Vegas (in an hour), driving to LA to party over the weekend, skiing in Tahoe, dinner in San Francisco, etc. (in the Bay Area) or having London outside your window, and having quick access to Scotland, France, and the rest of Europe in a matter of hours, and negligible expense. Other reasons are obviously safety, long term outlook, etc. (all the things already mentioned).

House prices are inflated due to low interest rates (BTW, house interest is tax deductible in the USA on top of low interest rates (I pay 4%, for someone (not me) who pays 30% effective tax, that's ~2.8%), making them more affordable, also resulting in buyers very quickly gaining principal in their homes. It's not a complete victory over the SA loan though - remember that the interest rate somewhat accounts for the fact that your loan will inflate away over time. Using the UK as an example, what tends to happen is say that a say R3m house in the UK is as affordable as a R2m house (repayments are similar), for a given income. However, the person in the UK usually earns more (say 2x, but really the range is huge), and can therefore afford a say R7m house in the UK (> 2x scaling since other expenses don't generally scale with house price).

The question is then, how does this R7m house compare with the R2m SA house? Honestly, if your criterion is warm weather, near a white sand beach - it still won't compare, but for the general populace, it will be nicer - not necessary 7m/2m = 3.5x nicer, but nicer. A key point here is that once the house has been paid off, the person who chose the UK option will have a R7m asset, and will continue accumulating wealth at a very high rate, now that bond payments are no longer occurring, and they still earn more. The person who opted for the R2m house in SA would have a far more modest wealth. The latter person wouldn't necessarily have lived a life of hardship at all, but the lack of "world relative" wealth does have certain implications: the person in the UK can easily visit any country in the world (including SA on the cheap) on a regular basis, and could move to just about anywhere without too much hassle, including moving back to SA with a boatload of cash. In contrast, the person who took the other option will be far more limited in their options available. Obviously, whether or not this is an actual advantage or issue respectively, depends on whether or not this is an option that gets exercised or not, but the wealth building aspects of living a similar quality of life in the two different situations should definitely be taken into consideration when deciding to stay or to leave.

...that was longer than I thought it was going to be...

 

[TehStranger]

Wrong.
Earning potential in the UK is higher, so it compensates for the inflated house price. A bond on a £200k home in the UK is worth 35% of my take home.
In SA for 35% of my take home, I would be able to buy a R900k house.

Then consider that the interest rates are lower in the UK, so where you will pay 230% of your house value by the time you pay it off in 20 years. I will only pay around 150%.
Then consider that the 65% take home that I have left after my monthly payment:
Does not have to pay for medical aid
Does not have to pay for school fees
Does not have to pay for home and car security
Pays a smaller percentage towards:
Life insurance (Because the UK is safer, less risk to life, less cost of life insurance)
Household insurance (Lower crime rate and B and E is basically non existent in the UK).

That means that the person in the UK has a larger percentage of available cash left after all is paid for. Leaving them with more money to throw into their homeloan to pay it off earlier. (If they were so inclined)

In the UK, if I chose not to pay anything extra into the homeloan, I would only be paying 50% more money in interest, over the loan period.
In SA, chosing not to pay extra will result in paying 130% more money than the home is worth.. (UK wins this scenario)
If we compare who can pay their home off earlier. UK wins again because they have more money left to put away.

Lots of interesting and useful info in your posts that prove the point quite well. Thanks.

 

[SoulTax]

I'm pretty sure I said a 280k bond on a 300k house. Was worked out as a first time buyer.

Ye I didn't think that you had said that, I just didn't want to read through the entire thread to validate what you had really said. You are quite right on the 280k bond. 1800 for a first time buyer is a decent amount. Although I think with shopping around it could be lower.

 

[Sinbad]

Ye I didn't think that you had said that, I just didn't want to read through the entire thread to validate what you had really said. You are quite right on the 280k bond. 1800 for a first time buyer is a decent amount. Although I think with shopping around it could be lower.

Indeed. I just looked at the 1st quote I got from barclays. Pretty sure if I were there I'd swing some form of premier banking with preferential rates

 

[Midnight_choir_drunk]

Wrong.
Earning potential in the UK is higher, so it compensates for the inflated house price. A bond on a £200k home in the UK is worth 35% of my take home.
In SA for 35% of my take home, I would be able to buy a R900k house.

Then consider that the interest rates are lower in the UK, so where you will pay 230% of your house value by the time you pay it off in 20 years. I will only pay around 150%.
Then consider that the 65% take home that I have left after my monthly payment:
Does not have to pay for medical aid
Does not have to pay for school fees
Does not have to pay for home and car security
Pays a smaller percentage towards:
Life insurance (Because the UK is safer, less risk to life, less cost of life insurance)
Household insurance (Lower crime rate and B and E is basically non existent in the UK).

That means that the person in the UK has a larger percentage of available cash left after all is paid for. Leaving them with more money to throw into their homeloan to pay it off earlier. (If they were so inclined)

In the UK, if I chose not to pay anything extra into the homeloan, I would only be paying 50% more money in interest, over the loan period.
In SA, chosing not to pay extra will result in paying 130% more money than the home is worth.. (UK wins this scenario)
If we compare who can pay their home off earlier. UK wins again because they have more money left to put away.

Are you taking into consideration that you would be taxed more in the Uk ? Also are you sure a 900k house here isnt easily as decent ?

 

[Saba'a]

Wow, 305 000 brits moves to SA, 315 000 brits moves to NZ. Thats are interesting figures

UK decent university education expensive I believe? Some people love it but some dont. I guess its about your economic and social situation and how u like your weather

 

[Sinbad]

Are you taking into consideration that you would be taxed more in the Uk ? Also are you sure a 900k house here isnt easily as decent ?

No you wouldn't actually. Tax thresholds there much higher than here

 

[S1ght]

http://www.saaustralia.org/

Thanks Tried to register this morning but apparently it needs to be approved by a moderator before I'm allowed to post >.<

 

[SoulTax]

Are you taking into consideration that you would be taxed more in the Uk ? Also are you sure a 900k house here isnt easily as decent ?

Yes I am taking the tax into consideration. Which is why I used take home, not gross.

And yes, you can find a 900k house in SA that is comparable to the UK house. But only comparable, not better by any stretch. Which is my point really. Once you compare them against earning potential, and get like for like. You realise that the UK property market is not as skewed and expensive as it first appears.

So the correct comparison is vs your buying power in that country. Because the UK has more buying power, the prices are higher, but they end up being fairly equivalent for the middle earner. The UK is better for the lower earner. SA is better for the upper middle earner and arguably, UK is much much much better for the higher earners. Because the big houses in the UK are fantastic. While the buying power of a high earner lets them buy holiday homes in Spain/France/Italy/SA for next to nothing.

Now sure, if I had 200 000 pounds cash and decided to buy in either SA or the UK. The SA home would be far more extravagant. But then you have to ask yourself. How did I earn 200 000 pounds in cash? With a UK salary. So the cash comparison is not the sensible one to use. As it produces a skew picture of the problem.