Do you support the new ban on alcohol sales?

Do you support the new ban on alcohol sales?

  • Yes

    Votes: 300 31.6%
  • No

    Votes: 649 68.4%

  • Total voters
    949

Radioboy

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
972
Sounds horrific but what would those numbers have looked like with just a curfew in place? How many MVAs did you attend to that took place during daylight? How many bar fights?

It's easy to blame booze but people have been drinking all though lockdown. Freedom of movement on the other hand...

Honestly I'd just like to see some real numbers.

MVA's while intoxicated was almost zero for me during level 5 as all the social spots were closed. Same with 'bar fights'.

Domestic Violence cases spiked badly during level 5.

The most recent weekend I was on call, majority of the MVA's was at night. However, I'm not sure whether a curfew would actually stop this.... I mean, people dont fear driving drunk and its consequences - so I'm not sure a badly enforced curfew would make any difference. The police cant be everywhere to enforce a curfew all the time , all over the country. However, the booze ban, takes a lot of pressure off the healthcare system, with the flick of the president's pen.

Booze is the only common denominator we see in the field. I work in the private sector and in the northern parts of Jozi and the impact of booze is blatantly clear - I'm scared to think what it's like in the public sector.

We dont have time,energy and the resources to deal this sort of patients right now.
 
Last edited:

Sinbad

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
78,936
MVA's while intoxicated was almost zero for me during level 5 as all the social spots were closed. Same with 'bar fights'.

Domestic Violence cases spiked badly during level 5.

The most recent weekend I was on call, majority of the MVA's was at night. However, I'm not sure whether a curfew would actually stop this.... I mean, people dont fear driving drunk and its consequences - so I'm not sure a badly enforced curfew would make any difference. The police cant be everywhere to enforce a curfew all the time , all over the country. However, the booze ban, takes a lot of pressure off the healthcare system, with the flick of the president's pen.

Booze is the only common denominator we see in the field. I work in the private sector and in the northern parts of Jozi and the impact of booze is blatantly clear - I'm scared to think what it's like in the public sector.

We dont have time,energy and the resources to deal this sort of patients right now.
I did a bit of volunteer work in Alex clinic a while back on Friday and Saturday nights. Just about every patient had been moered on the head with some sort of weapon in a drunken fight.
 

bwana

MyBroadband
Super Moderator
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
86,586
MVA's while intoxicated was almost zero for me during level 5 as all the social spots were closed. Same with 'bar fights'.
You think the shebeens weren't doing trade during level 5? "Households" were producing beer from day one.

Domestic Violence cases spiked badly during level 5.
Pretty sure my missus wanted to slap me silly more than once.

The most recent weekend I was on call, majority of the MVA's was at night. However, I'm not sure whether a curfew would actually stop this.... I mean, people dont fear driving drunk and its consequences - so I'm not sure a badly enforced curfew would make any difference.
It did before, it will again.

Booze is the only common denominator we see in the field. I work in the private sector and in the northern parts of Jozi and the impact of booze is blatantly clear - I'm scared to think what it's like in the public sector.
It's easy to blame booze - its a slow moving target. But it's pretty clear the government sees curfew as being as important since they can't seem to separate the two.
 

Radioboy

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
972
You think the shebeens weren't doing trade during level 5? "Households" were producing beer from day one.

Pretty sure my missus wanted to slap me silly more than once.

It did before, it will again.

It's easy to blame booze - its a slow moving target. But it's pretty clear the government sees curfew as being as important since they can't seem to separate the two.

You assume a lot, and I dont blame you. It's easier to sit on your couch, crying about your suspended civil liberties when you've got no clue what's happening inside our hospitals at this very moment.
 

Kola_CT

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
1,314
I hope the supporters will not be pissed off if the last hospital bed is taken by a Covid 19 patient when they need it and that results in their death.
Or any other patient who takes it and the reason is not directly related to alcohol abuse.

As for no alcohol, does not bother me much, but I am against the ban because this is about control more than anything else.

In the end stupid people will cause kak, if not because they are drunk, it will be because they are high, or maybe just because they are stupid.

This time round the ban is going to be long.
 

TEXTILE GUY

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
14,658
You assume a lot, and I dont blame you. It's easier to sit on your couch, crying about your suspended civil liberties when you've got no clue what's happening inside our hospitals at this very moment.

While I would be the first to respect anyone working in a hospital - or any emergency service- right now, I would also be the first to point out, as was pointed out to me in the past, you choose to do the job you do regardless of the situation. Sometimes things are tough, it called life.

I dont know whether you folks see the phuza Thursday and weekend toll. More so on payday weekend.
Its been like that for ages.
Having to attend to these incidents - well most people dont see it, but that doesnt diminish peoples right to go out, and do whatever they do in the name of enjoyment.
At best, we can ask folks to drink responsibly or act responsibly.

I appreciate exactly what you are saying, and am not arguing with your more educated assessment of the current situation, but I agree with @bwana - liberties are hard won, and lost at the stroke of a pen, and things are changing fast across the world in the name of covid.

Its a worry for sure.
 

RonSwanson

Honorary Master
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
11,443
This post illustrates why this will remain a very difficult case to defend on both sides. the extremely poor behaviour of a population hell-bent on self-destruction in a time when there is a major health crisis on the go.

I do not have an answer, either way, other than we need to go back to the age old ways in which alcohol was controlled before the the ANC took over, and that was with permanent curfews and drastic restrictions on the sale of alcohol quantities. Even then, the mayhem over weekends was always an issue.
No amount of moral outrage is going to work to defend the free and unrestricted sale of alcohol. No amount of arguments about how aggrieved we all feel will work either.

This one is doomed until the SA population changes its ways.
Behavioral change is very difficult to achieve, if not impossible. The apartheid government, bless their souls, definitely had it under control with a mix of well-enforced controls. It wasn't perfect, nothing ever is, but at least everyone knew exactly where they stood. Saturday and Sunday prohibitions meant that manufacturing facilities operated at their peak. There were real consequences for drunk driving offenders, very few bribes if any at all. And drinking (and subsequent urinating) in public meant cuffs, a cell, and facing a magistrate come Monday. The world was a cleaner place and safe for everyone.
 

John Tempus

Executive Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
Messages
6,121
This post illustrates why this will remain a very difficult case to defend on both sides. the extremely poor behaviour of a population hell-bent on self-destruction in a time when there is a major health crisis on the go.

I do not have an answer, either way, other than we need to go back to the age old ways in which alcohol was controlled before the the ANC took over, and that was with permanent curfews and drastic restrictions on the sale of alcohol quantities. Even then, the mayhem over weekends was always an issue.
No amount of moral outrage is going to work to defend the free and unrestricted sale of alcohol. No amount of arguments about how aggrieved we all feel will work either.

This one is doomed until the SA population changes its ways.

The government is forcing collective measures that should be based on targeted measures.

If there is high crime in one isolated area it is wrong to punish the entire South Africa and in the same sense if there is targeted areas that is abusing alcohol and causing trauma cases to escalate then how about you focus your restrictions on the specific areas and actually resolve the problem.

We have the stats since they clearly love to keep citing it then how about using the stats that shows which areas is heavily impacted and target your alcohol response to those areas like any logical government would do.

The collective punishment is right out of the marxist handbook and shouldn't surprise anyone why the ANC is using this failed approach to curb issues.
 

Kola_CT

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
1,314
The government is forcing collective measures that should be based on targeted measures.

If there is high crime in one isolated area it is wrong to punish the entire South Africa and in the same sense if there is targeted areas that is abusing alcohol and causing trauma cases to escalate then how about you focus your restrictions on the specific areas and actually resolve the problem.

We have the stats since they clearly love to keep citing it then how about using the stats that shows which areas is heavily impacted and target your alcohol response to those areas like any logical government would do.

The collective punishment is right out of the marxist handbook and shouldn't surprise anyone why the ANC is using this failed approach to curb issues.

What you say is true but involves work.
 

FNfal

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
6,412
This post illustrates why this will remain a very difficult case to defend on both sides. the extremely poor behaviour of a population hell-bent on self-destruction in a time when there is a major health crisis on the go.

I do not have an answer, either way, other than we need to go back to the age old ways in which alcohol was controlled before the the ANC took over, and that was with permanent curfews and drastic restrictions on the sale of alcohol quantities. Even then, the mayhem over weekends was always an issue.
No amount of moral outrage is going to work to defend the free and unrestricted sale of alcohol. No amount of arguments about how aggrieved we all feel will work either.

This one is doomed until the SA population changes its ways.
Prohibition does not work period .
In the old days the Nat government tried that with the black population , they promptly started brewing their own booze called shimiane and other ugly concoctions , it was so strong you could run your car on that stuff and if you punctured the vessel while they were brewing it, it blew up.

People will not be caught again .
 

Nerfherder

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
28,284
Imagine being a bottle store owner and being told to close up shop at 20:00 on a Sunday.

Logic not even once :rolleyes:
Bottle stores are not open on a Sunday. But yes, they could have at least done it on Sat so that they could prep.
 

bwana

MyBroadband
Super Moderator
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
86,586
Bottle stores are not open on a Sunday. But yes, they could have at least done it on Sat so that they could prep.
They were pre lockdown but I think he could be referring to Cyril essentially telling all the bottle store owners last night that they or their staff don't get to go to work the next day.
 

DMNknight

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Messages
3,385
I keep seeing this said, yet that's not really based in reality. If you are thought to be Covid positive, you get put in a separate ward/beds that are reserved for that. Just because people are coming in for trauma from alcohol abuse, doesn't mean they're going to decline Covid positive patients, it's a false dilemma that the current government seems to love, especially as everyone is focused on that instead of what they should be doing.

It would be pretty bad if they put all the Covid positive people in the trauma ward with people who are coming in for e.g. broken limb, heart attack, etc.

And there are different doctors for someone who comes in for a knife wound compared to the doctor helping you in regards to being Covid positive.

Healthcare is a finite resource in both beds capacity, capable staff and medicine that we all share. Banning alcohol is simply low hanging fruit law that will alleviate several hundred, if not several thousand cases a month on the healthcare system and make space for other emergencies.

Doctors and Nurses are a finite number of people with a finite amount of hours in a day to attend to patients.
You can do the math.
X amount of doctors and nurses
Y amount of time to attend to a patient (including checkups, medication, administration etc.)
Z amount of patients

Available Beds are a hard number. Available rooms is also a hard number.
It takes a patient a certain amount of days to be admitted, diagnosed, treated and discharged.

Gauteng population is around 14 million. If 10% of those require medical care, that's 1,4 million people that need care JUST from the COVID19 virus.
Thats not including the capacity taken up by normal day to day emergencies. Asthma attacks, strokes, allergic reactions, Heart attacks, car accidents, armed crimes etc.

We've just hit 80 000 confirmed cases and we've hit hospital capacity. That means as of now all manner of people will be treated as best as possible but there will be a higher chance of them not receiving care in time and dying.

What do you do when the medicine starts running out world wide? because every country is using up medicine at a rate of knots due to the high infection numbers.
Who do you give the last pills to? Give it to the almost recovered patient to make sure they get healthy, or take a chance that they will and give it to a new patient, hoping that 1 pill will make a difference?

Who do you give beds to? the stable patients or new patients?

Do you force your doctors and nurses to do 16 hour shifts? Where stress and overwork will definitely compromise their immune systems and probably get them sick.
Each doctor and nurse that gets sick in any way, also need treatment.
So now do you save the doctors and nurses with the last of your medication?
Do you give your beds to medical professionals who got sick because you required them to work more hours.

But, if you don't require more hours out of medical staff, then there will only be X amounts of patients you can see a day.

They don't have covid-19 wards. They have respiratory wards where all patients with respiration issues go to. They also have general wards when you don't need specialist attention.
ICU of course fro severe patients.
But the Maternity and Cardiothoracic wards are ill equipped to deal with Covid19 but you can't put Covid19 patients in there with newborns or heart disease patients.
 

TEXTILE GUY

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
14,658
Healthcare is a finite resource in both beds capacity, capable staff and medicine that we all share. Banning alcohol is simply low hanging fruit law that will alleviate several hundred, if not several thousand cases a month on the healthcare system and make space for other emergencies.
The one side ^

The other side V
South Africa government, private hospitals agree deal on COVID-19 patients
JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - The South African government has agreed how much it will pay private hospitals and medical practitioners to treat severely ill COVID-19 patients if public hospitals run out of space, a senior health official told Reuters.

Cant have it both ways -

Either we have made a plan or we havent.

SA got to the CORONA party quite late too this is how it looked in April
South Africa flattens its coronavirus curve—and considers how to ease restrictions
By Linda NordlingApr. 15, 2020 , 10:45 AM

Now, suddenly - literally the ban came overnight, something will make all the difference in the world, that being the sale of alcohol ?
I dont drink, so I give a hoot, but really ..... this flip flop story telling .....

Edit. You are aware that South Africa is the ONLY country that has gone with an ALL OUT ban.

Honestly, I hear what you say, and you are probably 100% on the money, but please allow me to be the one idiot who disagrees for the reasons above and others which are trite if you have followed the thread.
 

DMNknight

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Messages
3,385
The government is forcing collective measures that should be based on targeted measures.

If there is high crime in one isolated area it is wrong to punish the entire South Africa and in the same sense if there is targeted areas that is abusing alcohol and causing trauma cases to escalate then how about you focus your restrictions on the specific areas and actually resolve the problem.

We have the stats since they clearly love to keep citing it then how about using the stats that shows which areas is heavily impacted and target your alcohol response to those areas like any logical government would do.

The collective punishment is right out of the marxist handbook and shouldn't surprise anyone why the ANC is using this failed approach to curb issues.

The failure in reason here is expecting an external body (the government) to fix an internal issue (the behavior of self).
The healthcare system clearly shows that alcohol and it's abuse causes trips to the hospital through various means and levels of seriousness.

An overall ban will cost less than a bespoke solution per targeted area, where the funds can then be funneled to a now straining healthcare systems.

It's easy to be an armchair president. I think when this is all over, we'll see that the government did an Ok job at protecting its citizens from this pandemic, especially when compared to the rest of the world.
 
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