Do you think LSD has any benefits?

Rocket-Boy

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
10,199
How many people in this thread have indicated a long term, and positive effect from LSD (and they do not use it any more)? It strikes me as pretty arrogant to dismiss out of hand their experiences...

I know two people personally that are fairly useless to society and themselves after taking too much LSD.
Actually that isnt entirely correct, I *knew* them, they are not even able to hold conversations properly anymore and one of them is spotted more often than not with his underpants on the outside running around and screaming.
Very beneficial indeed.
 

Sherbang

Executive Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
9,874
I know two people personally that are fairly useless to society and themselves after taking too much LSD.
Actually that isnt entirely correct, I *knew* them, they are not even able to hold conversations properly anymore and one of them is spotted more often than not with his underpants on the outside running around and screaming.
Very beneficial indeed.

How do you know it was LSD that caused this.
I assume they were useful upstanding citizens who were doing well at life previous to taking a large dose of LSD, went crazy and have been ever since?
 

RiaX

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
7,211
How do you know it was LSD that caused this.
I assume they were useful upstanding citizens who were doing well at life previous to taking a large dose of LSD, went crazy and have been ever since?

Because its an adverse event for LSD ?
 

Sherbang

Executive Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
9,874
Because its an adverse event for LSD ?
That hasn't been proven.

What I want to establish is whether these two people Rocket-Boy was referring to were actually useful upstanding citizens with no issues prior to taking LSD? Or were they a bit off the wall to begin with?
 

RiaX

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
7,211
That hasn't been proven.

What I want to establish is whether these two people Rocket-Boy was referring to were actually useful upstanding citizens with no issues prior to taking LSD? Or were they a bit off the wall to begin with?

its in every single medical textbook EVER published since LSD made its arrival. You cant get the journal articles because you have NO access to them. Medical research isnt free you have to pay to read the articles or subscribe to a journal.

Two cases of delayed psychosis due to L.S.D. of such severity as to necessitate admission to mental hospital have been observed. Both patients, after initial intoxication with a single dose of L.S.D., reverted to complete normality and remained normal for between 2 weeks and 2 months before acute psychotic illnesses developed. The possibility of a delayed psychosis due to L.S.D. justifies discontinuation of the use of L.S.D. in psychiatry.

DELAYED PSYCHOSIS DUE TO L.S.D John Hatrick et al

Every psych hospital has these patients, Ive seen them with my own two eyes. You dont have a big report because you cant do a clinical trial to break minds permanently its not ethical. Secondly a person that has been broken permanently on LSD isnt worth the time to report. They got high now they f**ked shame next patient please.

DRUG-INDUCED PSYCHOSES AND SCHIZOPHRENIC REACTIONS: A CRITICAL COMPARISON ... will also confirm case studies with LSD. Unfortunately you got to buy it
 

Sherbang

Executive Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
9,874
its in every single medical textbook EVER published since LSD made its arrival. You cant get the journal articles because you have NO access to them. Medical research isnt free you have to pay to read the articles or subscribe to a journal.



DELAYED PSYCHOSIS DUE TO L.S.D John Hatrick et al

Every psych hospital has these patients, Ive seen them with my own two eyes. You dont have a big report because you cant do a clinical trial to break minds permanently its not ethical. Secondly a person that has been broken permanently on LSD isnt worth the time to report. They got high now they f**ked shame next patient please.

DRUG-INDUCED PSYCHOSES AND SCHIZOPHRENIC REACTIONS: A CRITICAL COMPARISON ... will also confirm case studies with LSD. Unfortunately you got to buy it

What I want to establish is whether these two people Rocket-Boy was referring to were actually useful upstanding citizens with no issues prior to taking LSD? Or were they a bit off the wall to begin with?

(oh and generally the abstracts are freely available, so go ahead and link to them)
 

RiaX

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
7,211
oh okay.

Copied and pasted the abstract for one case study.

The other one is a book, im not typing that out lol
 

Sherbang

Executive Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
9,874
its in every single medical textbook EVER published since LSD made its arrival. You cant get the journal articles because you have NO access to them. Medical research isnt free you have to pay to read the articles or subscribe to a journal.



DELAYED PSYCHOSIS DUE TO L.S.D John Hatrick et al

Every psych hospital has these patients, Ive seen them with my own two eyes. You dont have a big report because you cant do a clinical trial to break minds permanently its not ethical. Secondly a person that has been broken permanently on LSD isnt worth the time to report. They got high now they f**ked shame next patient please.

DRUG-INDUCED PSYCHOSES AND SCHIZOPHRENIC REACTIONS: A CRITICAL COMPARISON ... will also confirm case studies with LSD. Unfortunately you got to buy it

I see your DELAYED PSYCHOSIS DUE TO L.S.D John Hatrick et al
and raise you one Long-term psychological effects of LSD. McWilliams, Spencer A.; Tuttle, Renee J.
Data indicate that the danger of long-lasting psychological damage is low when the drug is used by emotionally stable Ss in secure, controlled settings, but Ss with psychiatric disturbance, unstable personalities, and current crisis situations have experienced pathological behavior temporally related to drug ingestion. Adverse reactions were not reported in well-controlled studies with normal Ss, indicating the drug's relative safety for continued research.

And one The Psychopharmacology of Hallucinogens
It maybe concluded that in certain vulnerable individuals LSD must be viewed as a psychotogen.
Clues to the nature of that vulnerability may be found in schizoaffective and visual symptoms, the apparent genetic loading for affective disorder, and possible involvement of the serotonin system of neural connections in the central nervous system

and one The Therapeutic Value of Lysergic Acid Diethylamide in Mental Illness
R. A. Sandison, B.Sc., M.B., B.S., D.P.M., Deputy Medical Superintendent and
A. M. Spencer, B.Sc., M.B., Ch.B., D.P.M., Medical Superintendent

And one http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/adverse.htm
To sum up, then, bad trips and mild flashbacks are common and even expected, but usually considered a nuisance—and occasionally even an opportunity—rather than a danger. More serious but relatively rare problems are recurrent frightening flashbacks, prolonged reactions (usually a few days but sometimes weeks or longer), suicides, and accidents. Thought and perception changes occur in some chronic users, but it is hard to say when these are immediate drug effects and when they are the result of reflection on the experience; in any case, they are rarely pathological and and almost never irreversible. There is no good evidence of organic brain damage or genetic alterations. The dangers are greatest for unstable personalities and in unsupervised settings. The most important limitation on the abuse of these drugs is the absence of a reliable euphoria, which means that people rarely go on using them, as they often go on using stimulants and sedatives, in spite of repeated disasters. Bad trips usually become deterrents before they become dangerous.
 

RiaX

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
7,211
and whats your point ?

that doesnt mean adverse events dont occur
 

Sherbang

Executive Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
9,874
and whats your point ?

that doesnt mean adverse events dont occur

I'm trying to determine if the two people Rocket-Boy was referring to were actually useful upstanding citizens with no issues prior to taking LSD? Or were they a bit off the wall to begin with? In other words, did the LSD cause their psychosis or did they have a pre-existing condition?
 

RiaX

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
7,211
Doesnt matter whether they predisposed to psychiatric disorders doesnt mean they will get it later on in life. Usually there are many factors that cause diseases to come, one key factor is environmental influence. For most pathologies the environmental trigger is unknown. Meaning we cant explain why people who have the genes for a disorder but dont develop it, its usually noted in auto-immune diseases like vitiligo. Ingesting LSD could have 'triggered' the onset of psychosis as the CNS environment had changed.

If they were psychotic already then all it shows is that LSD excaccebated the psychosis to the extent of permanent disability. These events are rare with LSD use maybe about 1% of users will get this, sometimes its hard to pin point LSD as the cause. Most of the time their diagnosis is "drug indueced schitzophrenia" meaning any psychedelic can cause it (psilocybin, PCP, LSD) and in the very rare instance cannibis.

Its a classic case of lack of research due to the dangers of the substance. Do you know there are no double-blind randomized clinical trials for HIV with respect to modalities of infection. You cant expose healthy individuals to HIV for an answer the ethics comitee will not allow it. All the information on HIV transmittion is retrospective, you can argue how HIV is transmitted over and over and over but in the real world you cant afford to take that chance.

Its the same with LSD. The risk with LSD is so great, that running a clinical trial is not feasable, that is why most research on LSD has been shut down. The only standing research is the effects with respect to illegal usage, even in mice frequent LSD dosing has shown mice to become anti-social. So if the event of LSD causing a mind shattering event that is irreveserable is 1% and you market it to the world. On a statistical average thats 70 000 000 people that would be affected by this event world wide working with a 7 billion population. Not to mention the increase amounts of death from well how you say ... sheer stupidity while intoxicated by the substance.

Saying LSD has "good properties that can be used in medicine" is invalid. Its the same defence for alcohol. A glass of wine is good for you. Thats not true, its the grape thats good for you and wine is made from grapes (grape seed extract is cardio protective). Its not because of the alcohol. Again even if you were to eliminate the inconviences of LSD and make it suitable for medicine, its known positives are not superior to todays refined drugs.

Yes indeed the difference between a drug and a poison is the dose, but there comes a point where rational thought must be applied to provide broad spectrum safety for the population. If LSD had a case like cocaine then maybe but it doesnt.

If you want to take LSD by all means go ahead, most likely you wont die. Medically its useless, and using street LSD for these pros is even worse. Ive explained how LSD damages your body via feedback cycles and homeostasis, i've explained how purity with street LSD can be hazardous and now I've explained why medically its hopeless. When you discuss if something is medically viable it must imply it will safely work for every single person and have a rationale behind its use. I can objectively test if someone is penicillin allergic and I can predict the outcomes of anaesthetics, more importantly I CAN REVERSE ALL THESE ADVERSE EVENTS. When it comes to LSD there is no hope no chance, neuroleptics will stop the trip but it cannot save you once you have been mentally disabled
 

scudsucker

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
9,024
ve explained how LSD damages your body via feedback cycles and homeostasis, i've explained how purity with street LSD can be hazardous and now I've explained why medically its hopeless.

I should not bother arguing with you, but your "explanation" does not equal fact.

You still have not linked to any published papers in any journal to support your arguments from pages back.

...but it cannot save you once you have been mentally disabled

And that statement is nothing but anti-drug hysteria.
 

Sensorei

Executive Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Messages
6,797
According to Dr. Stanislav Grof who has done more research on LSD than probably almost anyone in the world, "bad trips" in LSD merely mean that material has been accessed which has never been worked through. Now before you brush aside what he has to say, he was an assistant Professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University school of medicine, and a former Chief of Psychiatric Research at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center who is as respected for his psychedelic research as anyone you could mention.

Read his answer to to the following question, which is pretty much what this topic is about:

LSD has been both demonized and lionized. What do you think is the single greatest misconception about LSD?

"I would say these two reactions reflect the basic misconception, that LSD is either good or bad. It is neither. By itself, LSD has no intrinsic healing potential, nor does it have any intrinsic destructive potential. The outcome depends on who is doing it, with whom, for what purpose and under what circumstances. Yet everything that happens under the influence of LSD tends to be credited or blamed on the drug itself.

Years ago, during the initial flurry of bad publicity over LSD, I had a very interesting discussion with Professor Humphrey Osmond, one of the early pioneers of LSD research. He pointed out the ridiculous turn the debate had taken by pointing out that LSD is just a tool. He said if the worth of some other tool, a knife for instance, was discussed in the same way LSD was, you'd have a policeman saying it was bad, while pushing statistics of people killed with knives in back alleys. A surgeon would see it as good, pointing out the healing possibilities of the knife. A housewife might talk about cutting salami. An artist might talk about wood carving. As you can see, what is being said says less about the knife than about how it is used. We don't make the mistake of blaming or crediting the knife with how it's used, but with LSD it's all kind of thrown together."

As someone who has taken more than my fair share LSD I'd say that metaphor is LSD in a nutshell. Like I've said before I do not think LSD should be legal or even available to youngsters who take it recreationally at parties. In the wrong hands it is way too dangerous and the risks are too high. In the hands of someone who is prepared and has respect for the experience that person can emerge more whole and integrated with reality than they were before.

But the question this topic asks is if it has any benefits, and to nullify the many positive outcomes in previous studies because of the adverse effects in some is just arrogant and unacademic. We ALL know that it can be extremely dangerous! That isn't what's up for discussion.
 
Last edited:

RiaX

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
7,211
That is what is up for discussion. The OP asked for benefits, firstly you have to be realistic. You cant get pharmaceutical grade LSD, FACT. Secondly when you want to know if something is beneficial it has to have a net positive use, in other words there is no point if say drug A cures acne instantly but leaves you paralysed, its not beneficial at all.

I should not bother arguing with you, but your "explanation" does not equal fact.

You still have not linked to any published papers in any journal to support your arguments from pages back.

There are no journal articles for common medical knowledge you trained for a very long period of time and you never stop training. Find me a journal article on ninjas stabbing you in the heart causing death ?

As I said incomplete research. Its incomplete because of the dangers

Besides i've referenced what needs to be referenced - if you look its all there
 

Sherbang

Executive Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
9,874
Its a classic case of lack of research due to the dangers of the substance.

Its the same with LSD. The risk with LSD is so great, that running a clinical trial is not feasable, that is why most research on LSD has been shut down. The only standing research is the effects with respect to illegal usage, even in mice frequent LSD dosing has shown mice to become anti-social. So if the event of LSD causing a mind shattering event that is irreveserable is 1% and you market it to the world. On a statistical average thats 70 000 000 people that would be affected by this event world wide working with a 7 billion population. Not to mention the increase amounts of death from well how you say ... sheer stupidity while intoxicated by the substance.

Saying LSD has "good properties that can be used in medicine" is invalid. Its the same defence for alcohol. A glass of wine is good for you. Thats not true, its the grape thats good for you and wine is made from grapes (grape seed extract is cardio protective). Its not because of the alcohol. Again even if you were to eliminate the inconviences of LSD and make it suitable for medicine, its known positives are not superior to todays refined drugs.

Yes indeed the difference between a drug and a poison is the dose, but there comes a point where rational thought must be applied to provide broad spectrum safety for the population. If LSD had a case like cocaine then maybe but it doesnt.

If you want to take LSD by all means go ahead, most likely you wont die. Medically its useless, and using street LSD for these pros is even worse. Ive explained how LSD damages your body via feedback cycles and homeostasis, i've explained how purity with street LSD can be hazardous and now I've explained why medically its hopeless. When you discuss if something is medically viable it must imply it will safely work for every single person and have a rationale behind its use. I can objectively test if someone is penicillin allergic and I can predict the outcomes of anaesthetics, more importantly I CAN REVERSE ALL THESE ADVERSE EVENTS. When it comes to LSD there is no hope no chance, neuroleptics will stop the trip but it cannot save you once you have been mentally disabled

You keep repeating this nonsense and it's simply not true. LSD was banned as part of the 'war on drugs' not because it is too dangerous. Of course no drug is totally safe, every drug carries a risk, even aspirin - estimates of 40000 deaths a year due to pain killers! As recently as 2009, Dr David Nutt (a British psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist specialising in the research of drugs that affect the brain and conditions such as addiction, anxiety and sleep. He was until 2009 a professor at the University of Bristol heading their Psychopharmacology Unit. Since then he has been the Edmond J Safra chair in Neuropsychopharmacology at Imperial College, London. Nutt was a member of the Committee on Safety of Medicines, and was President of the European College of Neuropsychopharmacology.) has said:

The issue of the mismatch between lawmakers' classification of recreational drugs ... and scientific measures of their harmfulness surfaced again in October 2009, after the publication of a pamphlet containing a lecture Nutt had given to the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London in July 2009. In this, Nutt repeated his familiar view that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause, and presented an analysis in which nine 'parameters of harm' (grouped as 'physical harm', 'dependence', 'and 'social harms') revealedalcohol and tobacco to be more harmful than LSD, ecstasy and cannabis. In this ranking, alcohol came fifth behind heroin, cocaine, barbiturates and methadone, and tobacco ranked ninth, ahead of cannabis, LSD and ecstasy, he said.

Policies that ignore the realities of the world we live in are doomed to fail. This is true for just about all the biggest issues that we confront, from energy and climate to criminal justice, health and immigration. I'm not arguing that science dictate policy; considerations such as cost, practicality and morality also have a role. But scientific evidence should never be brushed aside from the political debate.

The current British government has said repeatedly that it wants its policies to be evidence-based, but actions speak louder than words. On ecstasy, for example, it made policy first, sought advice second – and cynically rejected the advice it was given. The result is shambolic policy-making which gives great cause for concern if that is how governments operate more generally.
 

Rocket-Boy

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
10,199
How do you know it was LSD that caused this.
I assume they were useful upstanding citizens who were doing well at life previous to taking a large dose of LSD, went crazy and have been ever since?

I know it was LSD because they were very open about it.
One was in his 3rd year studying medicine and the other was a very talented web developer.
It wasnt an isolated incident, they took it quite a lot over a period of time.
 

Rocket-Boy

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
10,199
I'm trying to determine if the two people Rocket-Boy was referring to were actually useful upstanding citizens with no issues prior to taking LSD? Or were they a bit off the wall to begin with? In other words, did the LSD cause their psychosis or did they have a pre-existing condition?

Yeah look im not trying to be an ass about it or anything, I know plenty of people that had been fine on it. I think they were just people that had addictive personalities and it agreed with them. Its definitely not a drug to take too often IMO.
 

AstroTurf

Lucky Shot
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
30,534
You keep repeating this nonsense and it's simply not true. LSD was banned as part of the 'war on drugs' not because it is too dangerous.

The Tom Wolfe book I mentioned earlier has a blow by blow account of the banning of LSD (including the conception of the 24hour prohibition act, or something like that).
 

scudsucker

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
9,024
There are no journal articles for common medical knowledge you trained for a very long period of time and you never stop training. Find me a journal article on ninjas stabbing you in the heart causing death ?

So: once again, the "my opinion is fact because I am a self-proclaimed expert, and I am right because I am an expert" argument...
 

AstroTurf

Lucky Shot
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
30,534
So: once again, the "my opinion is fact because I am a self-proclaimed expert, and I am right because I am an expert" argument...


You will never win this debate, there is always some "expert" to stubborn and to self righteous to listen to anyone else's opinions.
 
Top