Do you think LSD has any benefits?

[unskinnybob]

hmmmm, you guys should watch drug inc documentry.

When you see street heroin as this brown sludge ..... and the dealers mixing brick dust into the thing yoh. Anyways off topic but cool show

What does "brick dust" do when boiled? Surely the impurities are too big to fit in the hypodermic needle?

 

[RiaX]

dude I dont know exactly, they bulk the stuff. I just watched the programme, on analysis it was 10% heroin on the highest grade lol. It was a drug dealer that was telling his story, and the story is the same for everything.

They call it "stepping"

Edit

you get various sizes of hypodermic needles. They all have a different gauge, the normal one a doctor uses is usually a 30 gauge needle. Ive seen some monsters, used to pull out chunks of your liver for biopsy. Generally though the heroin community uses insulin syringes since they cheap.

Ai they use brick dust to OTC capsules used for sleeping, rat poison .... strange things that make no sense. The show tracks the drugs from production to user. Cocaine is 70% pure and each time it changes hands they step on it (mix it with weird stuff to make more profit). Making backyard cocaine they use hydrochloric acid, petrol ehter benzene and sulphuric acid and some other stuff.

meth they strip the energizer batteries for lithium and sudeofed. You can make it in a two litre bottle but its also a bomb. Lol Im really impressed on their knowledge of chemistry and the improvisations they make D: ... okes got meth labs in their car boots now

EDIT (again):

there was this episode on ketamine. I didnt even know people abused this lol, they banned it in the western world just this year I was stocking the hospital shelves with it and I was like NO WAY. According to user accounts it produces a similar effect to LSD but its an anaesthetic so you lose your body and all sensory perception, it cuts off the mind from the body, I dunno the okes couldnt explain it properly either.

It also had a nice drug safety profile for years (used in vietnam as a on field anaesthetic) and its similar to LSD with its 'harmless' profile until in 2008 chronic abuse of ketamine found out to be toxic to the lining of urinary tract, reminded me of this thread. The ex-addict had to surgically remove his bladder because it was finished, and a new bladder was made from a section of his intestine (a technique developed by a south african surgeon mind you), but to pee he has to use a catherter everytime, shame.

Oh yes with respect to the impurities 'fitting' , i dont think thats a problem if they dissolve in water. They use water and heat it in an attempt to make it sterile. The main COD is OD, then infection. PLus the show isnt censored, and watching these junkies inject themselves made me weak in the knees they like rip themselves open with the needle and blood everywhere and they pump that syringe like they trying to unblock a toilet.

 

[eitai2001]

I'm too scared to take the stuff because I read somewhere that it forms crystals in your fat, and as your body uses the fat, you can have minor trips ... not sure if it's true

 

[RiaX]

This was all years ago ... I'm too scared to take the stuff because I read somewhere that it forms crystals in your fat, and as your body uses the fat, you can have minor trips ... not sure if it's true

it isnt, if you get flashbacks your serotonin receptors are damaged physically. Happens in extreme chronic addicition and usage of LSD

Actually, my scariest experience was the 2nd time I smoked weed ... I thought the darkness was trying to steal my soul

waaaah ?

 

[Sensorei]

There is no evidence that LSD is responsible for serotonin neuron damage. That is just a bad theory. Receptor downregulation is quickly reversable. There is no evidence that LSD causes any permanent or long term damage to the brain. You need to read up some more. MDMA/Ecstasy on the other hand definitely can cause permanent changes on the serotonergic system.

 

[RiaX]

sigh im not getting into this debate. People get addicted to LSD like how people get addicted to gambling.

there are people with irreversable brain damage from LSD, they in the psych wards. Whatever you read DOESNT change that fact. Once the brain is damaged it cannot repair itself. Nerve tissue very rarely heals. All receptors will be damaged from over stimulation FACT. You dont have to do research to know this. 2 + 2 = 4 you dont have to do research to know 3 + 3 = 6.

MDMA, meth, heroin, cocaine, LSD, ketamine all destroy the brain tissue. Hell morphine, methadone, codeine ect ect ect will break the brain in abusive use. LSD is not the most potent drug BTW, the most potent drug ever created is heroin. Potency doesnt equate to efficacy it equates to physiological change, heroin has the power to create such a strong physiological change it can physically destroy the brain with a single hit.

Did you know why cocaine addiction is so hard to defeat? the mere thought of cocaine causes a massive surge of dopamine. LSD has as much truth to its current research as string theory sir, every single clinical trial ever done with it is bogus. Bet your research doesnt say anything about patients jumping out their windows from the fifth floor. LSD will cause a shut down of all serotonin pathways, like how steroids cause a shut down of the testes

EDIT:

BTW I have been studying up on these drugs, Ive learnt quite a bit since I started posting here. I can theoretically can make LSD, crystal meth, cocaine, MDMA, crack, paco .... learn about ketamine being a drug of abuse which I didnt even know because ketamine is still legal here in South Africa. I've even seen PET scans on how the brain changes over extended use from all these substances. Very interesting indeed but I have nothing further to add now.

Even read how drugs destroy the economic state of a country. The only drug where nothing bad is said is cannibis

 

[Sensorei]

OK now let me teach you something. This is actually something I know a thing or 2 about as well. After working in chemical dependency clinics and actually doing many talks on the dangers of drugs in the past I've done my fair share of homework reading research papers and reviews from various journals. I am only interested in the facts.

Now since you work in the medical field you might have heard of and have access to to the journal, CNS Neuroscience & Therapeutics which publishes the latest papers, reviews and news in the fields of psychiatry through to neuroscience. Well the back issues are also available online. The most recent up to date critical review on LSD covering everything from it's pharmacokinetics to toxicology and psychiatric complications was published in one of their 2008 journals. The doctors involved also published their findings in a ±150 page book in 2010. You'd find it an excellent read.

Their review which also gives gives references to hundreds of other papers and medical books and they go into discussing LSD's neuophysiological actions and how LSD interacts with the serotonergic and dopaminergic systems, and they say that their is no evidence of long term physical damage to the brain. They get quite specific about the actions on the various 5HT (serotonin) receptors. The mind is not the brain. Difference.

Your claim that flashbacks are caused by damaged serotonin receptors is your logic, which actually sounds like it should make sense, but it is incorrect. Dr's Halpern and Pope did extensive reseach on HPPD (flashbacks) and published a review article on flashbacks after also reviewing around 20 older quantitive studies on LSD and HPPD (flashbacks). It's the most recent legit info on LSD flashbacks. If you read it you will see they also disagree with you.

You then ramble on about all other drugs. In case you missed it, I was talking about LSD here and what you said about permanent serotonin receptor damage. I know LSD and other recreational drugs are dangerous.

 

[RiaX]

LSD is a tad complex sir.... first you got to understand its medicinal chemistry before you can understand its receptor properties. If the research is " no evidence of long term physical damage" that doesnt mean it does not happen. There was no evidence of long term physical damage for ketamine which was made in the 1960s, untill 2008. LSD will remain in the shroud of "no evidence" because its not a drug one takes 5 times a day like most abused drugs.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kgMSqPQvg5gJ:www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap6.pdf+&hl=en&gl=za&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESic7AgtDBnilIew24Lb7OCwcOWQSrfU9SRRWgh991dubjrJqBoTX7pOCChhdgKeEDOAC8QG-xPJmlc1xdzF1AvGSpzv4qG4wK9aZSCfIwUDU-roVFtzScU2i5q09aFrpsDfLZtJ&sig=AHIEtbSNR3v_eP22pG3NS4P1ycmi1DBHLw

start there if you really want to learn LSD, make sure you understand all the factors. THen move to all the references

 

[copacetic]

Good lord, there is some kak being claimed in this thread... :erm:

 

[Sensorei]

Pwned.

 

[RiaX]

Lol this reminds me of people using monobenzone as a cosmetic claiming there is no data that monobenzone scars the patient with low concentrations. All of them ended up cosmetically disfigured leading to the ban of monobenzone.

You guys need to read up on how receptors works, now I'm not claiming all LSD users will ended up psychotic but that is an unknown outcome since the type of users are not likely to chronically use it

 

[copacetic]

I know many people who have used LSD, some of them many decades ago.

They are all fine, in relative terms, to other human beings.

I am not saying that LSD is dangerous or not (it's not an argument worth having, as clearly preconceived notions are driving opinion, not evidence, as everyone is claiming), but you'd think if it was unusually harmful, we'd have easily observable evidence of this amongst the large number of people who have used it over the many decades it has been available...

Instead we sit here, talking about what seem to me very abstract discussions about all sorts of long winded, and academic sounding complexities, which fly in the face of what actually happens to people who use the damned stuff.

We know alcohol is harmful, we know crack is harmful, we know tobacco is harmful, we know tik is harmful. A lot of things we do and/or ingest are harmful. The question is, how harmful is LSD? The vast preponderance of evidence does not point to it as being particularly menacing - So why are there pages and pages of discussion where there seems to be an attempt to paint it as something dangerous?

Personally, I think it's basic anti-drug bias at work. Simple as that. Daddy government says it's bad, therefore it must be. Also, the notion that there are responsible drug users seems to horrify some people. Deal with, they exist in droves...

Christ, I get tire of this **** sometimes...

 

[RiaX]

you cant quantify the damage of LSD thats the problem. Some people nothing happens, others get rhabdomyolysis and some permanent psychosis. Others nothing will ever happen to them, thats the problem with LSD, its pot luck like its discovery

 

[copacetic]

RESULTS: Although frequently listed as a cause of rhabdomyolysis, there are only limited reports of rhabdomyolysis in patients who have ingested LSD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20587768

I can't help but interpret this as 'we were hoping to discover something that bolsters our anti-drug bias regarding LSD, but actually we didn't manage to do so'.

Regarding the permanent psychosis, it goes without saying that any powerful hallucinogenic drug can influence a person's mental state to one degree or another. The question is - Does it happen frequently enough to make LSD particularly dangerous (not as far as I can tell), and is the LSD causing the psychosis, as opposed to uncovering a latent problem?

People with psychiatric problems are often drawn to abusing substances, this is well known. So, yes, rehabs and hospitals are likely to see patients who are mad as hatters and happen to have taken LSD perhaps, but there are different ways to interpret this situation and the causes thereof. 'LSD made patient X go crazy' is not the only option, but oddly, it's the only interpretation people accept, when they have an obvious anti-drug bias at play.

*edit*

Again, I know many people who have used/use LSD. They are all normal human beings, with no unusual level of medical or psychiatric issues. I suspect that most people who know users of LSD would say the same thing.

I know this is not evidence of anything in any meaningful sense, but nor is all this abstract bull****, that doesn't appear to point to anything concrete at all.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

Im still not sure what all the hype is about tbh, shrooms are better anyway

I have known many people that were fine after it and some that werent.

I just thought about one of the guys that wasnt fine and its possible he had the condition before he tried LSD (he is diagnosed as a paranoid delusional schizophrenic) probably not a good person to have done it. So the story is he was probably on a bit of a downer and had a really bad trip where he got chased by monsters the whole time and was terrified for a while after that.

If you are going to do hallucinogenics then its probably better do something a little less powerful.

 

[RiaX]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20587768

I can't help but interpret this as 'we were hoping to discover something that bolsters our anti-drug bias regarding LSD, but actually we didn't manage to do so'.

Regarding the permanent psychosis, it goes without saying that any powerful hallucinogenic drug can influence a person's mental state to one degree or another. The question is - Does it happen frequently enough to make LSD particularly dangerous (not as far as I can tell), and is the LSD causing the psychosis, as opposed to uncovering a latent problem?

People with psychiatric problems are often drawn to abusing substances, this is well known. So, yes, rehabs and hospitals are likely to see patients who are mad as hatters and happen to have taken LSD perhaps, but there are different ways to interpret this situation and the causes thereof. 'LSD made patient X go crazy' is not the only option, but oddly, it's the only interpretation people accept, when they have an obvious anti-drug bias at play.

*edit*

Again, I know many people who have used/use LSD. They are all normal human beings, with no unusual level of medical or psychiatric issues. I suspect that most people who know users of LSD would say the same thing.

I know this is not evidence of anything in any meaningful sense, but nor is all this abstract bull****, that doesn't appear to point to anything concrete at all.

You missing the point, it occurs. End of story. You may think its not a big problem because you probably never seen it, HOWEVER it is for those that have it. You might claim low incidence and that its "bull" but its not "bull" for those suffering from it. Also why are you quoting an article im well aware of what rhabdomyolysis is, ive seen it in its grossest form, big problem for HIV positive people

People with psychiatric problems are often drawn to abusing substances, this is well known

what?

 

[copacetic]

You missing the point, it occurs. End of story. You may think its not a big problem because you probably never seen it, HOWEVER it is for those that have it. You might claim low incidence and that its "bull" but its not "bull" for those suffering from it.

I have been to rehab. I have family members and friends who have been in and out of psychiatric institutions. I have family who are involved in the treatment of people with psychiatric illnesses. I'm not exactly in the dark about all this. I'd love it if you could respond to the argument I made a little deeper than 'You missing the point, it occurs. End of story.'

Also why are you quoting an article im well aware of what rhabdomyolysis is, ive seen it in its grossest form, big problem for HIV positive people

:wtf: Because the article makes it apparent that the link between rhabdomyolysis and LSD is at best, extremely tenuous.

what?

It depends on the particular condition, but for example:

According to the most recent literature on substance abuse and bipolar disorder, these two problems occur together so frequently that all young people with a bipolar diagnosis should also be assessed for drug and alcohol problems. Those who experience mixed states or rapid cycling have the highest rate of danger from substance abuse — the discomfort a person feels in these chaotic moods is so great that she may be willing to do or take almost anything to make it stop.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/substance-abuse-and-bipolar-disorder/all/1/

Aside from that, depending how a given society treats those with mental disorders, many people don't have the necessary access to treatment and proper medication, and are thus forced to seek out alternative 'treatments'. The fact that these people are often treated as fringe participants in the game of life doesn't help either.

 

[RiaX]

No I cant respond with "it happens..." all the time you are right, though with medical side effects you can.

many people don't have the necessary access to treatment and proper medication,

treatment for mental illnesses is free. Like HIV and TB, if people dont want to go to a state hospital to be an outpatient then thats their problem they must pay.

lol off topic, I had this douche bag dude that used to come for risperidal consta injection (about R1200 per injection, he took 2). He drove a cls 63 amg and owned a yought :wtf: and was at a government hospital because he didnt want to pay for injections.

 

[Sensorei]

Guys give it up. RiaX can not be debated with. He has made so many mistakes with his claims already and when caught out he just rambles on about something else unrelated.

The latest published critical review on LSD done by a team of respected doctors says that of the approximately "10,000 patients participating in research of the 1950's and 1960's. The incidence of psychotic reactions, suicide attempts and suicides during treatment with LSD, appears comparable to the rate of complications during conventional psychotherapy."

I guess this doctor in charge who is a specialist in psychiatry and psychotherapy and asst Professor, who also wrote his doctorate specifically on existential aspects of psychiatric disorders and altered states of consciousness knows less about LSD than our friendly pharmacist, RiaX. I doubt Harvard would still be asking him to lecture if he wasn't at the top of his field.

 

[copacetic]

Yeah, I'm out, simply because half of my points are just not responded to...

But I just had to comment on all the bull****.