Do you think LSD has any benefits?

[copacetic]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before. The value for me in any psychoactive substance is in studying its chemical properties in order to isolate potential pharmacological benefit. By banning the use of substances, we negate a lot of in-the-wild data, our ability to perform research and thereby our ability to benefit from the substances. Not only could this research have benefits for pharmacology, but also fields like the cognitive sciences, neurology, and ethics.

I did kind of touch on this:

Well, considering the fact that LSD is banned throughout most of the world, 'legitimate' sources will not be the most obvious choice for obtaining practical information about said substance, surely?

 

[TheGuy]

Why is it only the people that haven't tried it that seems to be bothered by it?

 

[Skywalker42]

Why is it only the people that haven't tried it that seems to be bothered by it?

Decades of lies in the media to hide the truth.

 

[RiaX]

Hmmmm, tell me how the neurotransmitters in the CNS change when using LSD. See there is enough medical research on LSD, you guys just cant afford to look at it. Its type of information that isnt free and highly restricted. Any of you ever held a pharmacology textbook worth R6000 ? or a pharmacopeia worth about R40 000 ? ever been in a medical library? these sources of information arent easily availble even on the powerhouse google. I've looked, but since you all have PhDs in neuropharmacology please enlighten me on the mechanism of action of LSD AND its behaviour modifications WRT to physiological responses of brain and behaviour response of the subjects.

You have the floor

oh btw if im not mistaken Steve Jobs died of a heart attack yes? LSD is extremely cardiotoxic because of its nature as a stimulant. Cardiotoxicity can show its effect maybe 40 years later, just like smoking and cancer.

 

[Saltex]

I wonder if you approached a psychiatrist and asked them if they would supervise you under an acid trip if they would,i'd do it but only if I had a professional with me just incase, but i highly doubt it.

 

[RiaX]

hmmmm if you could get a properly made and tested LSD and be under medical supervision, then why not. Though that options doesnt exist.

http://addictions.about.com/od/designerdrugs/tp/The-Truth-About-Acid.htm

some basic information on LSD myths vs truths. Druggies will go to far lengths to justify themselves, I have no idea why but its very common.

 

[scudsucker]

Hmmmm, tell me how the neurotransmitters in the CNS change when using LSD. See there is enough medical research on LSD, you guys just cant afford to look at it. Its type of information that isnt free and highly restricted. Any of you ever held a pharmacology textbook worth R6000 ? or a pharmacopeia worth about R40 000 ? ever been in a medical library? these sources of information arent easily availble even on the powerhouse google. I've looked, but since you all have PhDs in neuropharmacology please enlighten me on the mechanism of action of LSD AND its behaviour modifications WRT to physiological responses of brain and behaviour response of the subjects.

You have the floor

oh btw if im not mistaken Steve Jobs died of a heart attack yes? LSD is extremely cardiotoxic because of its nature as a stimulant. Cardiotoxicity can show its effect maybe 40 years later, just like smoking and cancer.

Do you have a Phd in organic chemistry? From your posts, probably not much more than a lower grade matric science pass.

Cardiotoxic 40 years later??? Please sir, give us a reference to a medical journal that published that piece of research.

 

[RiaX]

key word CAN ... gosh. Go learn what cardiotoxic, hepatotoxic nephrotoxic mean before you come and type rubbish. Have you taken a drug called synap forte btw?

oh and you didnt answer my proper question, EXPLAIN THE MOA OF LSD IN DETAIL.... dont use any wikipedia links.

EDIT

oh btw to answer your question. No i dont have a PhD in organic chemistry BUT I have honors in medicinal chemistry. Also have a single novel journal article that was published WRT to altering neurotransmitters.

 

[Unhappy438]

You're grasping at straws if you think Steve Jobs Lsd usage was the cause of his death.

 

[Synaesthesia]

oh and you didnt answer my proper question, EXPLAIN THE MOA OF LSD IN DETAIL.... dont use any wikipedia links.

You ask of the MAO of LSD, well the mechanism of LSD is not well known, we don't really know much about the brain. It's known to substitute for Serotonin.

What's wrong with Wikipedia? The standard is much higher than that article you linked, which really didn't contain any useful facts.

Steve Jobs is just one anecdotal event, doesn't prove anything. What about Dr Albert Hoffman who died at age 98? LSD is neither toxic, nor a stimulant as you claim.

 

[Synaesthesia]

Anyway, to add my 2c, I believe LSD and other psychedelics should be heavily researched as a useful compounds for brain science. They should also be legal, IMO, but society is still quite far away from that.

It certainly has benefits, read some of the comments at the bottom of this survey to see what the experience can be like. It can be quite spiritual and beautiful. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_survey1.shtml

 

[RiaX]

You ask of the MAO of LSD, well the mechanism of LSD is not well known, we don't really know much about the brain. It's known to substitute for Serotonin.

What's wrong with Wikipedia? The standard is much higher than that article you linked, which really didn't contain any useful facts.

Steve Jobs is just one anecdotal event, doesn't prove anything. What about Dr Albert Hoffman who died at age 98? LSD is neither toxic, nor a stimulant as you claim.

Wikipedia will tell you the pharmacokinetics basically not dynamics so its an incomplete picture. Its mechanism is known look hard for it, its there. Wikipedia has a high level of information I concur but not high enough for understanding this type of discussion. The same reason wikipedia doesnt replace your doctor. Also my information was simply about the myths of LSD, that sort of information is very basic and any rehab or drug centre will provide you with that knowledge. And no if you even hint at a conspiracy here then GTFO of the science forum and go sit with the people that have seen aliens in area 51 if the government wanted to control you they WOULD GIVE YOU mind altering drugs not ban it.

Yes I was waiting for people to mention Steve Jobs, the EXACT same reason he cant be used as a success for LSD either. As for Dr Albert Hoffman his lengthy life was definitly not due to LSD, most of us on this forum probably wont reach that age anyways perhaps good luck. One cant say how a person lives long, we can only say how the person died. I've seen alcoholics living till 80 and a perfectly healthy person dead at 32 with lung cancer, never even smoked. Also seen a 96 year old man that chained smoked, there is always a case that would defy every bit of medical science, like that dude that literally has no brain but functions as a normal human being. On that note Im kinda going off topic but I WORKED with a 98 year old man (refused to retire and the hospital kept him on, claimed the day he retires is the day he dies). He was one of the few South African's that went to fight in world war 2, never met a real war vet before very interesting stories that old man had, possibly the most legend person I've ever met. A pharmacist that took off his coat and left to fight nazis D:

Anyways...

LSD is toxic, not as toxic as one would think BUT again you dont have pharmaceutical grade products. Sandoz Lab findings and texts are there on LSD where its LD50 profile is recorded and its adverse reactions ect. Hell I can even tell you the wavelength of light LSD emits under UV spec (will have to look for the textbook though, havent used it in a while). Though as I said earlier the warping of whats percieved by the mind is dangerous. In actuality there arent many people who have died from overdose on LSD, however there are that many people who have died on the effects of LSD.

What does serotonin do to the body? causes a lot of stimulatory effects and there are a lot of 5-HT receptors and 'sub-receptors' through out the body. The human body is also not an isolated system. Start here to find your real data on LSD.

So in conclusion defending LSD using the simple LD50, half-life and efficacy is a very desperate attempt in providing an OK for the substance. Perhaps you MIGHT have an arguement if the orginal REGULATED product was around. in reality you dont so yeah your LD50 profile will no longer be valid nor your efficacy or half-life. "street pharmacy" is a whole different ball game, a guy in a make shift basement lab is making this thing out of chemicals that are easily availble TO MAKE MONEY, yes they totally care for your health. You can boost the potency of LSD by using antidepressants, and if you make your cilents addicted its better for business no? a one shot use kid is not going to buy that ferrari. These people arent stupid, they know the penalty if they are caught. Making LSD is no simple task, its not like growing cannabis, which can also become extremely techincal. Make it potent make it addictive make it expensive, quick and fast fortune.

In simple terms. LSD by sandoz = Johnny walker blue label KG ed
LSD on street = moonshine

hey if LSD doesnt work out for you drug users there is always LSA (FYI)

and no LFA is a car made by lexus -.-'

 

[Synaesthesia]

Its mechanism is known look hard for it, its there.

Here is some information on LSD (Medscape), as you can see the mechanism is not well understood. Basically they say that LSD substitutes for serotonin at serotonin receptors (5HT) and stimulates dopamine receptors. In fact nobody even knows why it's active at such a tiny dosage.

Yes I was waiting for people to mention Steve Jobs, the EXACT same reason he cant be used as a success for LSD either. As for Dr Albert Hoffman his lengthy life was definitly not due to LSD, most of us on this forum probably wont reach that age anyways perhaps good luck. One cant say how a person lives long, we can only say how the person died. I've seen alcoholics living till 80 and a perfectly healthy person dead at 32 with lung cancer, never even smoked. Also seen a 96 year old man that chained smoked, there is always a case that would defy every bit of medical science, like that dude that literally has no brain but functions as a normal human being. On that note Im kinda going off topic but I WORKED with a 98 year old man (refused to retire and the hospital kept him on, claimed the day he retires is the day he dies). He was one of the few South African's that went to fight in world war 2, never met a real war vet before very interesting stories that old man had, possibly the most legend person I've ever met. A pharmacist that took off his coat and left to fight nazis D:

Exactly anecdotal data doesn't prove anything. Of course smoking won't "kill you" but it's statistically correlated to a shorter life. LSD has been studied for decades. If it was toxic it would be public knowledge. Physically it's harmless.

What does serotonin do to the body? causes a lot of stimulatory effects and there are a lot of 5-HT receptors and 'sub-receptors' through out the body.

Serotonin does not "cause stimulatory effects", it's an endogenous neurotransmitter. LSD substitutes for Serotonin.

in reality you dont so yeah your LD50 profile will no longer be valid nor your efficacy or half-life. "street pharmacy" is a whole different ball game, a guy in a make shift basement lab is making this thing out of chemicals that are easily availble TO MAKE MONEY, yes they totally care for your health. You can boost the potency of LSD by using antidepressants, and if you make your cilents addicted its better for business no?

Actually LSD is usually completely unadulterated, unlike some street drugs, for the simple reason doesn't make economic sense to cut it with anything, because it's simply the most potent psychedelic known, you only need 100 micrograms.

LSD's potency is not boosted by antidepressants, it's actually reduced with most anti-depressants. Adding anti-depressants just doesn't make any sense, they're hard to obtain or synthesize.

Anyway, back onto the topic. Here's a couple of more interesting articles on LSD:

There is no hiding with LSD
- Guardian
"an acid trip forces users to face whatever comes up, and self-knowledge often follows"

LSD 'helps alcoholics to give up drinking'
"One dose of the hallucinogenic drug LSD could help alcoholics give up drinking, according to an analysis of studies performed in the 1960s.
A study, presented in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, looked at data from six trials and more than 500 patients.

It said there was a "significant beneficial effect" on alcohol abuse, which lasted several months after the drug was taken.

An expert said this was "as good as anything we've got"."

 

[RiaX]

Pretty informative MOA that is yes. As with stimulatory it can be mental stimualtion or physical stimualtion. Basically thats what your reference was saying. You cant simply alter one of the monoamine neurotransmitters and get away with it. If you alter the activity of 5-HT, dopamine and noradrenaline and adrenalin will respond. This will increase CNS activity, usually when this occurs the heart rate also goes up thereby a stimulation of the body as a whole. Same effects can be noted with your xanthine based compounds which ANTAGONISE those same neurotransmitters. The body responds to these substances by trying to restore chemical balance. Again its not as simple as googling. Secondly 5-HT its very difficult to isolate the different receptors and hence isolate exactly how 5-HT works with this regard. You can get what is known as a pyridoxial effect where certain things are done but the exact opposite occurs. Oh and 5-HT does cause stimulatory effects thats how the newer generation anti-obesity drugs work, hence they S5. These drugs which act on the monoamine neurotransmitters are modified from amphetamines, hence the stimulatory effect and weight loss. Drugs that treat psychosis like haloperidol block dopamine (remember earlier the xanthine compounds also block but stimulate? The internet cant help you here) and in turn effect the levels of the other monoamine neurotransmitters. It causes depression, weight gain, bradycardia and in rare cases causes an affect of the QT wave of the cardiac cycle which can result in death of the patient. Seeing a pattern on agonist vs antagonist ? Anti-obesity drug sibutramine was a monoamine neurotransmitter blocker and blocked the reuptake of 5-HT by 54% on average, long term use deemed it cardiotoxic and was later removed by the FDA and by the MCC here in SA.

Just because you need a 100mcg doesnt mean it wont be changed. If you go back you will see where I explained the concept of impure excipients in a formualtion. Its a little more complex than the active drug. There are enough public cases, a person dying under the influence is not something that would be news so its hardly reported. Just another idiot trying to have a good time that died, no one cares for this news

Next you can BOOST LSD by adding in what is called an SSRI, that would force the body in keeping 5-HT where it is, there are more indrustial hydrocarbon compounds that can do this in a very damaging way as well as hydrocarbon compounds like xylene which do the opposite (depress the CNS). Monoamine oxidase inhibitors will also boost LSD. To give you an example LSD, MDMA (ecstasy), bromo dimethoxyphenethylamine, dimethyltryptamine (small post in the lucid dreaming thread if you want to see what this is about), psilocybin (magic mushroom thing) are all the same class and they ALL work on 5-HT pathways. Guess what their effects are related as they are family .... and they stimulate the body and/or mind.

As LSD a 'spiritual" awakener, thats subjective. How you want to interpret the euphoria and hallucinations is your own thing, just like how the psych patients do. One guy I used to treat in the mental house always claimed he saw horses in his living room and it was a sign telling him to bet on horses, well thats what the psychiatrist noted in his file. He did run up to me in the pharmacy one day and screamed "Doctor doctor help me there are horses in my living room" - hence why I took an interest in his case lol. IM a humble pharmacist I tend not to question the psychiatrists its a difficult field, fascinating though to see how the mind warps their perception of reality to create a new reality. You are just as likely to be tormented as your are to be spirtually awaken with LSD its pot luck according to your mind. There are even cases where the subject suffers from severe psychosis and they go into a full mental breakdown. Though from LSD its rare (but occurs when the subject is unable to process the hallucinations), this belongs more to the ecstasy group where they get braindamge TBH. Most people are intelligent enough not to drive when goofed out of their minds and from the narcotics on the street the safest would probably be LSD and cannibis (that like saying its probably safer to play with dynamite rather than C4). Though its MOST people not ALL. If alcohol was created today in today's world it would be BANNED instantly. If you had good quality, regulated LSD perhaps it would arguably been safer than alcohol, however that said there isnt enough research and data to substantiate that claim and never will. LSD suffers from being "too potent". Imagine if you got SLOSHED on a teaspoon of beer, would be nice and cheap for the wallet rofl. The key difference is, I can have a beer and nothing will happen, but I cant have some LSD and be sober. The effects of LSD for chronic LSD use isnt well understood, that doesnt mean its good. Chronic uses results in flashbacks, why they come where come from no one knows. If you begining to hallucinate things without a substances thats grounds to be committed in a mental institution and thats not good. Patients also altering their 5-HT levels are subject to serotonin syndrome by use of these substances and that is fatal.

With respect to making alcoholics give up a 21% increase on such a tiny sample group is not indicative of a proper purpose. Unfortunately the people abused it so its been removed so we cant do further testing on it, just retrospective studies. Strange though your expert claims "An expert said this was "as good as anything we've got"." but he wasnt even there for these trials, who is this expert whats his name?
Secondly if LSD is the best thing then that expert is mad. Disulfram has a 67% success ratio and its been proven effective in numerous double blinded randomized clinical trials, something LSD has not been through. Though with addiction its a subjective ball game. If you dont want to quit no treatment will help you like those anti-smoking drugs, Zyban and Champix.

 

[Synaesthesia]

Pretty informative MOA that is yes. As with stimulatory it can be mental stimualtion or physical stimualtion. Basically thats what your reference was saying. You cant simply alter one of the monoamine neurotransmitters and get away with it. If you alter the activity of 5-HT, dopamine and noradrenaline and adrenalin will respond. This will increase CNS activity, usually when this occurs the heart rate also goes up thereby a stimulation of the body as a whole. Same effects can be noted with your xanthine based compounds which ANTAGONISE those same neurotransmitters. The body responds to these substances by trying to restore chemical balance. Again its not as simple as googling. Secondly 5-HT its very difficult to isolate the different receptors and hence isolate exactly how 5-HT works with this regard. You can get what is known as a pyridoxial effect where certain things are done but the exact opposite occurs. Oh and 5-HT does cause stimulatory effects thats how the newer generation anti-obesity drugs work, hence they S5.

Thanks, some interesting information. I'm no expert pharmacologist but I'm very interested in it, would love to learn more.

These drugs which act on the monoamine neurotransmitters are modified from amphetamines, hence the stimulatory effect and weight loss. Drugs that treat psychosis like haloperidol block dopamine (remember earlier the xanthine compounds also block but stimulate? The internet cant help you here) and in turn effect the levels of the other monoamine neurotransmitters. It causes depression, weight gain, bradycardia and in rare cases causes an affect of the QT wave of the cardiac cycle which can result in death of the patient. Seeing a pattern on agonist vs antagonist ? Anti-obesity drug sibutramine was a monoamine neurotransmitter blocker and blocked the reuptake of 5-HT by 54% on average, long term use deemed it cardiotoxic and was later removed by the FDA and by the MCC here in SA.

Don't quite get the amphetamine argument. Most psychedelics drugs generally belonging to two categories of compounds, Tryptamines, and Phenethylamines. Now they bear some resemblance to Amphetamines, but that doesn't mean that they're are similar in effect. LSD is a tryptamine, a rather complicated one, very unlike Amphetamine.

OK so haloperidol and sibutramine were found to be dangerous, but they're quite unrelated. I kind of get your point, that the dangers are unknown, but thus far there are no indications yet that LSD is dangerous or harmful in the long term. And LSD is extremely popular.

Just because you need a 100mcg doesnt mean it wont be changed. If you go back you will see where I explained the concept of impure excipients in a formualtion. Its a little more complex than the active drug. There are enough public cases, a person dying under the influence is not something that would be news so its hardly reported. Just another idiot trying to have a good time that died, no one cares for this news

It's true, you're taking a chance. I trust my dealers to have pure stuff. If you're concerned about purity there are testing kits.

Next you can BOOST LSD by adding in what is called an SSRI, that would force the body in keeping 5-HT where it is, there are more indrustial hydrocarbon compounds that can do this in a very damaging way as well as hydrocarbon compounds like xylene which do the opposite (depress the CNS). Monoamine oxidase inhibitors will also boost LSD. To give you an example LSD, MDMA (ecstasy), bromo dimethoxyphenethylamine, dimethyltryptamine (small post in the lucid dreaming thread if you want to see what this is about), psilocybin (magic mushroom thing) are all the same class and they ALL work on 5-HT pathways. Guess what their effects are related as they are family .... and they stimulate the body and/or mind.

SSRI's are reported to decrease the intensity of LSD, as far as I've read.

bromo dimethoxyphenethylamine, dimethyltryptamine ... just call them 2C-B and DMT please!

LSD, MDMA, 2C-B, DMT and Psilocybin all work on 5-HT pathways and are loosely related, you can't just group them together totally like that. For example Psilocybin isn't stimulating at all, makes me rather sleepy.

As LSD a 'spiritual" awakener, thats subjective. ...this belongs more to the ecstasy group where they get braindamge TBH. Most people are intelligent enough not to drive when goofed out of their minds and from the narcotics on the street the safest would probably be LSD and cannibis (that like saying its probably safer to play with dynamite rather than C4). Though its MOST people not ALL. If alcohol was created today in today's world it would be BANNED instantly. If you had good quality, regulated LSD perhaps it would arguably been safer than alcohol, however that said there isnt enough research and data to substantiate that claim and never will. LSD suffers from being "too potent". Imagine if you got SLOSHED on a teaspoon of beer, would be nice and cheap for the wallet rofl. The key difference is, I can have a beer and nothing will happen, but I cant have some LSD and be sober. The effects of LSD for chronic LSD use isnt well understood, that doesnt mean its good. Chronic uses results in flashbacks, why they come where come from no one knows. If you begining to hallucinate things without a substances thats grounds to be committed in a mental institution and thats not good. Patients also altering their 5-HT levels are subject to serotonin syndrome by use of these substances and that is fatal.

The LSD experience is fascinating, particularly the spiritual aspect which surprised me. I'm not normally a spiritual person.

You can try low dosages of LSD, by having 1/4 or 1/10th of a dose. The effects are generally a slight improvement in mood and focus, with a sober mindset. Google microdosing.

I'm pretty satisfied that LSD is safe and generally pure in street form.
I mean everything comes with it's risks. People get poisoned by Aspirin every year. It's quite easy to OD on! There's evidence too much caffeine can make you psychotic. It's not proven that MDMA causes brain damage, although it has been proven to deplete serotonin levels so I wouldn't abuse it.

As for LSD "flashbacks". Basically they can be triggered by any traumatic event.It's a psychological phenomena. Serotonin syndrome, that can occur in certain combinations of serotonergic drugs, such as DXM + MDMA and is very dangerous. That's why you should research what you take first!

Psychedelics have gotten a bad reputation but I don't see why they shouldn't be studied and used more. They are definitely an avenue for much further pharmacological research. Luckily we are seeing some activity in this field from legitimate organisations like MAPS.

A few more interesting articles:

There are more than a million billion billion billion billion billion billion new drugs waiting to be discovered.

Psychedelic drugs can unlock mysteries of brain

 

[Simpy]

And here ends today's lesson...

 

[AstroTurf]

Thanks, some interesting information. I'm no expert pharmacologist but I'm very interested in it, would love to learn more.


Don't quite get the amphetamine argument. Most psychedelics drugs generally belonging to two categories of compounds, Tryptamines, and Phenethylamines. Now they bear some resemblance to Amphetamines, but that doesn't mean that they're are similar in effect. LSD is a tryptamine, a rather complicated one, very unlike Amphetamine.

OK so haloperidol and sibutramine were found to be dangerous, but they're quite unrelated. I kind of get your point, that the dangers are unknown, but thus far there are no indications yet that LSD is dangerous or harmful in the long term. And LSD is extremely popular.

It's true, you're taking a chance. I trust my dealers to have pure stuff. If you're concerned about purity there are testing kits.


SSRI's are reported to decrease the intensity of LSD, as far as I've read.

bromo dimethoxyphenethylamine, dimethyltryptamine ... just call them 2C-B and DMT please!

LSD, MDMA, 2C-B, DMT and Psilocybin all work on 5-HT pathways and are loosely related, you can't just group them together totally like that. For example Psilocybin isn't stimulating at all, makes me rather sleepy.



The LSD experience is fascinating, particularly the spiritual aspect which surprised me. I'm not normally a spiritual person.

You can try low dosages of LSD, by having 1/4 or 1/10th of a dose. The effects are generally a slight improvement in mood and focus, with a sober mindset. Google microdosing.

I'm pretty satisfied that LSD is safe and generally pure in street form.
I mean everything comes with it's risks. People get poisoned by Aspirin every year. It's quite easy to OD on! There's evidence too much caffeine can make you psychotic. It's not proven that MDMA causes brain damage, although it has been proven to deplete serotonin levels so I wouldn't abuse it.

As for LSD "flashbacks". Basically they can be triggered by any traumatic event.It's a psychological phenomena. Serotonin syndrome, that can occur in certain combinations of serotonergic drugs, such as DXM + MDMA and is very dangerous. That's why you should research what you take first!

Psychedelics have gotten a bad reputation but I don't see why they shouldn't be studied and used more. They are definitely an avenue for much further pharmacological research. Luckily we are seeing some activity in this field from legitimate organisations like MAPS.

A few more interesting articles:

There are more than a million billion billion billion billion billion billion new drugs waiting to be discovered.

Psychedelic drugs can unlock mysteries of brain

As I said in a previous post, I have not taken LSD in years.

I have some San Pedro at home I am slowly growing, it would need a much bigger pot if I wanted to grow it for alkaloids (again) but it's not something I would drink. I did like experimenting with different goodies when I was much younger but now I feel I have tried plenty, enjoyed most and will only take LSD again once my daughter has moved out.

 

[RiaX]

bleh k im done. IM not going to debate this have fun

 

[BLIXEMPIE]

LSD sounds like nutmeg. But nutmeg will probably kill you if digested whole. I know someone who ate 2 whole nutmegs and didn't know what she was in for or what they could do since you can buy processed nutmeg for food. She saw spiders crawl up her legs eating her flesh and everything spinning around her. Was very bad. Miracle she's alive today.

 

[copacetic]

bleh k im done. IM not going to debate this have fun

Why not? Because people disagree with you in a perfectly reasonable fashion?

That's lame.