Does the average South African even understand the concept of Democracy?

Bobbin

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Generally would it not matter most what circumstances the ship/island finds itself in? There is no catchall for all circumstances which is why militaries have multiple secondary structures of power.
Someone who actually contributes. Thank you :)

If morality is an absolute then I'm not sure if circumstances would matter. Morality, as a social practice, might require that nobody should assert uninvited dominance. If that is the case, then the ship should not move until 100% of the people agree on a vote - with the caveat that all valid votes are not malevolent and negotiations with initial detractors are free and without coercion. Every motion would be justified with facts or good arguments and everybody would have a chance to qualify any contrary argument. That's option 4 in a nutshell I think.

That said, I don't think the above would be possible in reality. In reality, the ship would never move?
 

rambo919

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Someone who actually contributes. Thank you :)

If morality is an absolute then I'm not sure if circumstances would matter. Morality, as a social practice, might require that nobody should assert dominance. If that is the case, then the ship should not move until 100% of the people agree on a vote - with the caveat that all valid votes are not malevolent and negotiations with initial detractors are free and without coercion. Every motion would be justified with facts or good arguments and everybody would have a chance to qualify any contrary argument. That's option 4 in a nutshell I think.

That said, I don't think the above would be possible in reality. In reality, the ship would never move?
I fail to see what morality has to do with it, some things work others don't, some permanently others temporarily.
 

saturnz

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If morality is an absolute then I'm not sure if circumstances would matter.
in another thread you were not sure if free will exists or not, and now you want to start off your "thought experiment" on the basis that morality is absolute

which one is it?
 

Cray

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Someone who actually contributes. Thank you :)

If morality is an absolute then I'm not sure if circumstances would matter. Morality, as a social practice, might require that nobody should assert dominance. If that is the case, then the ship should not move until 100% of the people agree on a vote - with the caveat that all valid votes are not malevolent and negotiations with initial detractors are free and without coercion. Every motion would be justified with facts or good arguments and everybody would have a chance to qualify any contrary argument. That's option 4 in a nutshell I think.

That said, I don't think the above would be possible in reality. In reality, the ship would never move?
Not to mention the danger of the ship having to make an emergency course correction (rocks ahead.) which then needs to go through a democratic vote before action is taken.
 

Bobbin

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Not to mention the danger of the ship having to make an emergency course correction (rocks ahead.) which then needs to go through a democratic vote before action is taken.
I think if 100% of the voters agreed to a captain or board of elite then this would still be fine morally/socially speaking. "Countries" might then be divided by consensus and not whatever arbitrary magic holds their borders together these days :p

But this is another thing that is probably not practical in reality :/

It does beg the question, are most if not all countries fashioned with a degree of immorality?
 

saturnz

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Not to mention the danger of the ship having to make an emergency course correction (rocks ahead.) which then needs to go through a democratic vote before action is taken.
not to mention that there are other boats that you can jump on
 

Bobbin

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I fail to see what morality has to do with it, some things work others don't, some permanently others temporarily.
If you were the last person on earth, how would you practice morality? I can't help but think that morality comes down to social interaction. And deciding what to pursue or not, in a group of any sort, is an interesting moral dynamic.

An exception I can think of being that some religions might say you can still commit evil despite other people, i.e. suicide or blasphemy? Although that's still an interaction with a deity.
 

rambo919

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If you were the last person on earth, how would you practice morality? I can't help but think that morality comes down to social interaction. And deciding what to pursue or not, in a group of any sort, is an interesting moral dynamic.

An exception I can think of being that some religions might say you can still commit evil despite other people, i.e. suicide or blasphemy? Although that's still an interaction with a deity.
When no other people are around then the only possible immorality would be committed against a deity assuming that the deity is a person as the Abrahamic one is.

In the Abrahamic traditions you cannot commit a crime against yourself, anything immoral you do to yourself is actually done directly to the deity in who's image you were created. In a sense anything done to anyone else also is also done directly against the deity in who's image they were created.

To illustrate suicide is the murder of oneself since even the individual does not have enough ownership to decide that his life may end and it is impossible to defend oneself against oneself.... defending others against oneself by suicide though is it's own question.

The western idea of extreme individualism is completely anti-christian since it places the creation above the creator and steals the right to the property(the individual) from it's rightful owner.

In the end all morality is religious in nature, you cannot materially or scientifically craft one from the ground up it's impossible. Most if not all atheist systems of morality are built apon theistic ideals supposedly stripped of their religion.... which is absurd.
 

Bobbin

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In the end all morality is religious in nature, you cannot materially or scientifically craft one from the ground up it's impossible. Most if not all atheist systems of morality are built apon theistic ideals supposedly stripped of their religion.... which is absurd.
I am aware of the relationship between religion and morality and agree with that aspect.

I don't know if it's necessarily impossible to craft one from the ground up though, that seems to be an assertion that is still worth investigating.

I've heard of the benevolent premise of the universe as one possible idea.
I, personally, wonder if morality truly arose from nature - which is another Godless absolute. Which was transcribed into religion and myth through trial and error.
Another headache consideration that occurred to me once is that there's nothing to distinguish an intelligent God with a random/infinite unintelligent occurrence. So there's another Godless absolute to consider, so to speak.
 

Bobbin

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You provided no information whatsoever in post #33.
It's your analogy that you "floated" (pun intended).
Surely you can provide the requested information?
Sorry what information were you asking for again?
 

Bobbin

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You forgot?
You being obtuse?
No seriously, I'm lost as to what you're asking of me. Admittedly don't have energy right now to go back and read things. These discussions, as interesting as they are, drain me as it is.
 

Bobbin

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When no other people are around then the only possible immorality would be committed against a deity assuming that the deity is a person as the Abrahamic one is.

In the Abrahamic traditions you cannot commit a crime against yourself, anything immoral you do to yourself is actually done directly to the deity in who's image you were created. In a sense anything done to anyone else also is also done directly against the deity in who's image they were created.

To illustrate suicide is the murder of oneself since even the individual does not have enough ownership to decide that his life may end and it is impossible to defend oneself against oneself.... defending others against oneself by suicide though is it's own question.

The western idea of extreme individualism is completely anti-christian since it places the creation above the creator and steals the right to the property(the individual) from it's rightful owner.

In the end all morality is religious in nature, you cannot materially or scientifically craft one from the ground up it's impossible. Most if not all atheist systems of morality are built apon theistic ideals supposedly stripped of their religion.... which is absurd.
And another thought besides what I stated in post #54 in trying to provide alternative absolutes.. for fear that it might be a weak argument...

Perhaps morality is indeed relative as time itself. Relativity is universal. Relativity is absolute :p

Which means there is no justification to assert one's values on another and any attempt to do such is a corruption of whatever it means to live or survive.

That'd probably be a difficult principle to uphold though.
 

Ponderer

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And another thought besides what I stated in post #54 in trying to provide alternative absolutes.. for fear that it might be a weak argument...

Perhaps morality is indeed relative as time itself. Relativity is universal. Relativity is absolute :p

Which means there is no justification to assert one's values on another and any attempt to do such is a corruption of whatever it means to live or survive.

That'd probably be a difficult principle to uphold though.
What do you mean by "relativity is absolute"?
 
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