Donald J. Trump: President of the USA Part III Covfefe

truman19

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In context to the discussion it's true. And you are 100% right it's farking stupid.

Why the need to link Nationalism to anything other than being 100% country and citizens (irrespective of race)?
Because that's not always the case
 

Gingerbeardman

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Not me.

Hitler associated race with Nationalism.

That was demonstrated on point 4, which you think I ignored???!. I included that because that shows how Nationalism can be used to promote evil ideologies. He did it for Germany. He said the Jews were holding the rise of German nationalism back, so it was imperative that for German Nationalism to prosper, he needed to get rid of the Jewish people.
Right, so Hitler was a racist nationalist, ergo all nationalism is racist. Gotit. :ROFL:
 

Pitbull

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Not me.

Hitler associated race with Nationalism.

That was demonstrated on point 4, which you think I ignored???!. I included that because that shows how Nationalism can be used to promote evil ideologies. He did it for Germany. He said the Jews were holding the rise of German nationalism back, so it was imperative that for German Nationalism to prosper, he needed to get rid of the Jewish people.
That ideology itself makes it Nazism.

There is nothing wrong with Nationalism and the broader form. Globalist have an issue with it... America has always been very patriotic as a country. So by definition nationalist by a very far margin. Doesn't make them racist now does it?
 

Pitbull

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Because that's not always the case
So "because it's not always the case" let's link it to Nazism?

You see how retarded that is right?

"No you can not play cricket, people get killed in Cricket matches by bowlers"
 

rietrot

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Jesus Christ!

Nazism IS nationalism,it may not fall under all types of nationalism but it certainly does fall under others hence it IS nationalism
Nazism is more socialist. That's were it went wrong. The socialist always try and look for someone to blame and then murder. It just happened to be the Jews then, like it is the 1% now. If it was only nationalism then everything would have been fine. You need the socialist identity politics for it to turn toxic.
 

Cray

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I did. I told you to read John Stuart Mill and to watch the video interview of Jeffrey Tucker, where he goes into depth on the topic. It is possible to have liberal nationalism, you know. :rolleyes:
Handing out reading assignments and you tubes videos is pointless unless you actually want to discuss the ideas contained within, why not simply paraphrase their arguments instead of making us watch videos of dubious quality... that's what Xarog used to do...
 

buka001

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Right, so Hitler was a racist nationalist, ergo all nationalism is racist. Gotit. :ROFL:
You cry foul regarding strawman arguments and here you go full steam ahead at doing the same.

I never said as such.

I said some brands of Nationalism can be hijacked to push extreme ideologies, all under the banner of Nationalism.

Not all nationalists are racists. Some nationalists are. Not all racists are nationalist, some racists are.

Hitlers brand of Nationalism was extreme and as evil as they get. Using his name when discussing the topic and even ever so slightly trying to say there was something good about it, for example had it stayed within German borders is laughably ignorant and defensive of Hitlers policies.
 

buka001

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That ideology itself makes it Nazism.

There is nothing wrong with Nationalism and the broader form. Globalist have an issue with it... America has always been very patriotic as a country. So by definition nationalist by a very far margin. Doesn't make them racist now does it?
Of course it doesn't.

Hitlers version was wrong and that form of Nationalism, practised and fully displayed in Germany from 1933 to 1945 was an indisputable tenet of Nazism.
 

truman19

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Nazism is more socialist. That's were it went wrong. The socialist always try and look for someone to blame and then murder. It just happened to be the Jews then, like it is the 1% now. If it was only nationalism then everything would have been fine. You need the socialist identity politics for it to turn toxic.
So the reason for the holocaust was socialism and not nationalism(ethnic nationalism)?
 

Gingerbeardman

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Handing out reading assignments and you tubes videos is pointless unless you actually want to discuss the ideas contained within, why not simply paraphrase their arguments instead of making us watch videos of dubious quality... that's what Xarog used to do...
I have already done that multiple times. Key word "Hegel". If you don't know what I am talking about, watch the video. Pitbull already did a perfectly good job of describing a form of nationalism divorced from race. Why's that not good enough for you? :rolleyes:

If you want to still talk about Hegel after having watched the video, we can do that, and I'll happily bore you to tears with my verbosity.
 

Pitbull

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But ... If you wanted to downplay the association between nationalism and racism, don't you think you would have picked a better example than Hitler?
That's on her. It was a stupid comparison. You guys now playing along with it makes it even worse and it reflects on you more than her.
 

Gingerbeardman

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You cry foul regarding strawman arguments and here you go full steam ahead at doing the same.

I never said as such.
You are putting words in our mouths and then creating a straw man to ridicule our position. I am merely returning the favour by pointing out the only possible reasonable interpretation your argument can have with respect to our actual position. If you don't like it, take a 10 minute break and ask yourself where you might have gone wrong in characterising our argument.

I said some brands of Nationalism can be hijacked to push extreme ideologies, all under the banner of Nationalism.
Nobody denies this.

Not all nationalists are racists. Some nationalists are. Not all racists are nationalist, some racists are.
Great. Can we now talk about the nationalism that isn't racist, which is by far the most popular brand of nationalism out there today?

Hitlers brand of Nationalism was extreme and as evil as they get. Using his name when discussing the topic and even ever so slightly trying to say there was something good about it, for example had it stayed within German borders is laughably ignorant and defensive of Hitlers policies.
Ok, so in your opinion, if people are tired of being smeared with Nazi slurs whenever they try to bring up their non-racist nationalism, how should they defend nationalism without mentioning Hitler?
 

Gingerbeardman

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But ... If you wanted to downplay the association between nationalism and racism, don't you think you would have picked a better example than Hitler?
Not when you have a bunch of crazy SJWs shouting NAZI NAZI NAZI at the first whiff of "nationalism". How many times does this have to be repeated? :ROFL:
 

zippy

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Not when you have a bunch of crazy SJWs shouting NAZI NAZI NAZI at the first whiff of "nationalism". How many times does this have to be repeated? :ROFL:
Or it could be the obvious racism that they are attempting to hide behind the label "nationalism"

And some folks here have a reputation which is way beyond repair. When they use the term "nationalism", rightly or wrongly, their previous history/reputation results in the nazi label being applied.

I agree that nationalism != nazi
 

Emjay

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And some folks here have a reputation which is way beyond repair. When they use the term "nationalism", rightly or wrongly, their previous history/reputation results in the nazi label being applied.
Such as?
 

Gingerbeardman

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@Cray

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/hegelnew.htm

"The Nation State is spirit in its ... actuality ... it is therefore the absolute power on earth. ... The State is the Spirit of the People itself. The actual State is animated by this spirit ... The self-consciousness of one particular Nation is the vehicle for the ... development of the collective spirit; ... in it, the Spirit of the Time invests its Will. Against this Will, other national minds have no rights: that Nation dominates the World."


From G.W.F. Hegel, Philosophy of Law, § 331.


All the worth which the human being possesses - all spiritual reality, he possesses only through the State. ... For Truth is the Unity of the universal and subjective Will; and The Universal is to be found in the State, in its laws, its universal and rational arrangements. The State is the Divine Idea as it exists on earth. We have in it, therefore, the object of History in a more definite shape than before; that in which Freedom obtains objectivity, and lives in the enjoyment of this objectivity. ... When the State of our country constitutes a community of existence; when the subjective will of man submits to laws, the contradiction between Liberty and Necessity vanishes. The Rational has necessary existence, as being the reality and substance of things, and we are free in recognizing it as law, and following it as the substance of our own being. The objective and subjective will are then reconciled, and present one identical homogenized whole."


From G.W.F. Hegel, Philosophy of History in Jacob Loewenberg (ed.), Hegel: Selections (New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1929), pp. 388-89.


"The State is the realization of the ethical idea. It is the ethical spirit as revealed, self-conscious, substantial will. It is the will which thinks and knows itself, and carries out what it knows, and in so far as it knows. The unreflected existence of the State rests on custom, and its reflected on the self-consciousness of the individual, in return, has his substantial freedom in the State, as the essence, purpose, and product of his activity."


"The true State is the ethical whole and the realization of freedom. It is the absolute purpose of reason that freedom should be realized. ... The State is the march of God through the World, its ground is the power of reason realizing itself as will."


"We must ... worship the State as the manifestation of the Divine on Earth."


From G.W.F. Hegel, Philosophy of Law in Jacob Loewenberg (ed.), Hegel: Selections (New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1929), pp. 443-444, 447.


PRIMACY OF THE STATE VS. THE INDIVIDUAL


"In civilized nations, true bravery consists in the readiness to give oneself wholly to the service of the State so that the individual counts but as one among many. Not personal valor alone is significant; the important aspect lies in self-subordination to the universal cause."
Not my bold. The point is that Hegel's nationalism was explicitly totalitarian. Marx was a left Hegelian. The left Hegelians see nationalism only in terms of right Hegelianism, which Jeffrey Tucker links to Nazism via the genealogy of thinkers following Hegel in depth. But because the continental thinkers have a tendency to ignore analytic thinkers and vice versa, the English liberal nationalist tradition gets completely overlooked by the rabid social Marxists espousing intersectional theory.

If you want to discuss the topic seriously, you need to do some homework. Sad but true.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Or it could be the obvious racism that they are attempting to hide behind the label "nationalism"

And some folks here have a reputation which is way beyond repair. When they use the term "nationalism", rightly or wrongly, their previous history/reputation results in the nazi label being applied.

I agree that nationalism != nazi
Do you really think a black woman like Candace Owens is trying to promote racism when she speaks in defence of nationalism and Trump's MAGA movement? Really?
 
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