Donald John Trump: The 2nd Greatest President of the USA (by volume)

[RanzB]

The only thing that matters is the outcome. Actual post-reform data points. Until such time I'll continue to be optimistic.

So rather than discuss it before it's up for vote, it's better to rush it through without transparency?

So yes, transparency is for losers :crylaugh:

 

[Garson007]

So yes, transparency is for losers :crylaugh:

That's not what I said.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

... alright, way to miss the point there.



The thing is, what you really don't get, is how absolutely screwed the US healthcare system is. It's so screwed that even middle class voters want a public healthcare option. The ACA is very imperfect, but it has a huge majority approval. The only people who want the ACA disbanded are the wealthiest Americans, who make up a vast minority of the voting public because the ACA has a direct impact on their tax rates.

For instance, on my Facebook page I have an uncle in Texas who proudly voted Trump. But the other day he made a post, basically begging the Repubs to act cautiously when it came to repealing and replacing Obamacare. And right now, what appears to be happening is that the Repubs have gone into hiding because they know exactly what reaction their bill will get, and will attempt to force it through Congress with a minimum of transparency, on July 4th. Americans will get to wake up the next day and scour the news to find out what will be the repercussions to their healthcare. That is appalling behavior, and there is no way you can paint it otherwise.



Thing is, lowering contributions and taxes is only half the story. If you take away taxes/contributions, you must concomitantly lower the standard of public healthcare back to where it was pre-Obama. So the question is whether people are willing to pay that price; and they aren't.

It is, but they've correctly gone with the gamble that their voters would rather have family members, friends etc. die to give millionaires more money than vote out Republican representatives, because it makes liberals mad or something. GOP voters have voted against their best interests for decades. No reason they'll stop now.

If the Dems ever control Congress again they should learn from the Republicans and not bother with trying to be nice and include the other side etc. Just lie, ignore procedure and norms, steal court appointments etc.

 

[cerebus]

The only thing that matters is the outcome. Actual post-reform data points. Until such time I'll continue to be optimistic.

You do realize that it's possible to determine the outcome with a fairly high level of certainty ahead of time, right? That's why you have ratings agencies like the CBO, whose job it is to score bills. The original CBO score for the AHCA, for instance, found that 24 million more Americans were going to become uninsured, among other things. You can choose to ignore those data points, but then what do you base your optimism on? Simply the goodwill of the Republican party? That's a joke.

 

[RanzB]

That's not what I said.

Have you said anything regarding the lack of transparency/debate regarding the bill or whether you find it a good thing?

 

[Garson007]

The original CBO score for the AHCA, for instance, found that 24 million more Americans were going to become uninsured, among other things.

That's your narrative. Mine is throwing off dead weight allows lower premiums for working citizens. Again, if coverage is down AND premiums go up they will get voted out.

 

[Garson007]

Have you said anything regarding the lack of transparency/debate regarding the bill or whether you find it a good thing?

I don't believe I have, because I don't care.

 

[RanzB]

I don't believe I have, because I don't care.

Exactly.

 

[cerebus]

If the Dems ever control Congress again they should learn from the Republicans and not bother with trying to be nice and include the other side etc. Just lie, ignore procedure and norms, steal court appointments etc.

Or at least, put up a proper fight for the things that matter. Bipartisanship is a joke. Trump can whinge about obstructionism from Dems before he's even allowed them to see the bill they're meant to be obstructing, while republicans spent the prior 8 years doing all the above things. And Mitch McConnell is the undisputed master of manipulating public disinterest in political proceedings to move hugely corrupt pieces of legislation.

 

[cerebus]

I don't believe I have, because I don't care.

No, you really don't care. You don't want to know what's in the bill, you have a blind faith that it's going to lower premiums without compromising healthcare, and you're willing to rubberstamp anything Trump does, and await or ignore the consequences.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

That's your narrative. Mine is throwing off dead weight allows lower premiums for working citizens. Again, if coverage is down AND premiums go up they will get voted out.

Ah, conservatism. Poor, old and sick people are "dead weight" who should be killed off.

 

[RanzB]

Ah, conservatism. Poor, old and sick people are "dead weight" who should be killed off.

And the party of small government wants to push through massive bills with no transparency, and the people who back the party of small government don't care about knowing what's in bills they intend to pass.

Shameful.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Or at least, put up a proper fight for the things that matter. Bipartisanship is a joke. Trump can whinge about obstructionism from Dems before he's even allowed them to see the bill they're meant to be obstructing, while republicans spent the prior 8 years doing all the above things. And Mitch McConnell is the undisputed master of manipulating public disinterest in political proceedings to move hugely corrupt pieces of legislation.

Yes, he is. The corrupt old turkey is quite smart.

The whole whinge about obstruction from Trump is a pathetic lie anyway. They literally can't obstruct in any meaningful way, since the Republicans control Congress and the White House.

 

[The_Assimilator]

I don't know why you guys are bothering to attempt to argue with Garson. He's repeatedly demonstrated that he's cut from the same cloth as Trump and the GOP, in that he lacks basic humanity and doesn't give a flying f**k about anyone who isn't wealthy or a GOP voter.

 

[Garson007]

The whole whinge about obstruction from Trump is a pathetic lie anyway. They literally can't obstruct in any meaningful way, since the Republicans control Congress and the ****e House.

They can delay nominations. Which they have done.

Inb4 WaPo article stating that he hasn't nominated as many people as Obama. You can't nominate underlings if you haven't got the heads in yet. Now that he has a full cabinet nominations are coming through at a lump a day.

 

[RanzB]

They can delay nominations. Which they have done.

Inb4 WaPo article stating that he hasn't nominated as many people as Obama. You can't nominate underlings if you haven't got the heads in yet. Now that he has a full cabinet nominations are coming through at a lump a day.

Yeah, as if that hasn't got anything to do with how ****ty Trump's nominations have been.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

And the party of small government wants to push through massive bills with no transparency, and the people who back the party of small government don't care about knowing what's in bills they intend to pass.

Shameful.

Not that that's ever been something they actually value, though. Same party that passes bills about which bathrooms people should use, who you can marry, that allows corporations to buy your browsing history, get access to your genetic information, that pushes for mass surveillance, massive military industrial complex subsidies etc.

 

[Garson007]

Not that that's ever been something they actually value, though. Same party that passes bills about which bathrooms people should use, who you can marry, that allows corporations to buy your browsing history, get access to your genetic information, that pushes for mass surveillance, massive military industrial complex subsidies etc.

I don't agree with everything GOP does on a federal level (can't care about State-level stuff because I'm not in any State, and if I was I'd only care about my State) as I'm more a supporter of the right-libertarian, paleoconservative, federalist, classic liberal, tea-party, etc. wing of the party.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

They can delay nominations. Which they have done.

Inb4 WaPo article stating that he hasn't nominated as many people as Obama. You can't nominate underlings if you haven't got the heads in yet. Now that he has a full cabinet nominations are coming through at a lump a day.

That's not really true, either. Since they just file cloture votes and pass the nominations as they have done. The only thing holding up confirmations is Trump himself.

He 'nominated' Christopher Wray to be FBI director more than 2 weeks ago yet still hasn't formally notified the Senate.

 

[RanzB]

I'm more a supporter of the right-libertarian, paleoconservative, federalist, classic liberal and tea-party wing of the party.

Lol. "Classical liberal" doesn't care about the transparency of the government.