E-toll prices hikes kick in in March

wingnut771

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
11,995
Dude, we live in a welfare state. Did you miss the part where people were desperate for their R350/month grants for COVID-19? Are you a qualified accountant that you get to look at all the levies on the fuel bill, and where each is spent, and you have determined to what extent each is "wasted" or spent as required? I think the basic principle is that the highways were always going to be paid for by a tax, and the government decided that only people who used the highways should pay for it (with an elaborate tolling system) rather than tacking on a new national fuel levy to cover it (or even just diverting funds from the existing levies). I've said this before: the one time the government tries to actually put taxation into our hands like adults, we throw all our toys. This is exactly why SARS doesn't leave PAYE tax to voluntary payments from employees, but takes it directly from employers. If South Africans get a whiff of a chance to absolve themselves of a responsibility, they'll grab it.
Why is that? Who's fault is that? Certainly not the tax payer. It's a manufactured condition (poor laws and education) by the state to keep voters as dependents, ie; vote buying. Are you ok with supporting the most expensive free way project in the world when only one lane was added? Screw the law where it says for a toll road to happen that it must be a new road, and there must be an viable alternative route option. None of these things apply here hence the civil disobedience.

I would have no problem with them e-tolling the new lane and leave it it that, you know like what they said they were going to do but anyway...

You do you, carry on being a sheep.
 

Foxhound5366

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
7,874
Why is that? Who's fault is that? Certainly not the tax payer. It's a manufactured condition (poor laws and education) by the state to keep voters as dependents, ie; vote buying. Are you ok with supporting the most expensive free way project in the world when only one lane was added? Screw the law where it says for a toll road to happen that it must be a new road, and there must be an viable alternative route option. None of these things apply here hence the civil disobedience.

I would have no problem with them e-tolling the new lane and leave it it that, you know like what they said they were going to do but anyway...

You do you, carry on being a sheep.
*grins* Isn't it funny how your civil disobedience exists only where there is a direct benefit to you ... in this instance, saving you money? Between you and me, I'm actually putting my money where my mouth is, in terms of supporting eTolling simply because it's the law and I don't get to decide which laws I want to support, anymore than you do. What civil disobedience are you taking part in that actually costs you money or time? That would mean something.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Swa

PsyWulf

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
11,120
you know like what they said they were going to do but anyway...
Not to mention - variable rates depending on time of day,weight-class based charges rather than axle-based

And that pesky 2x-3x the cost due to Admin fees
It was supposed to be cheaper than manned Tolls,not significantly more expensive
 

Sarg3_ZN

Expert Member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Messages
1,813
Not to mention - variable rates depending on time of day,weight-class based charges rather than axle-based

And that pesky 2x-3x the cost due to Admin fees
It was supposed to be cheaper than manned Tolls,not significantly more expensive

and if they just added 10c to the fuel levy back then instead of this circus, we would have already paid for this by now
 

wingnut771

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
11,995
*grins* Isn't it funny how your civil disobedience exists only where there is a direct benefit to you ... in this instance, saving you money? Between you and me, I'm actually putting my money where my mouth is, in terms of supporting eTolling simply because it's the law and I don't get to decide which laws I want to support, anymore than you do. What civil disobedience are you taking part in that actually costs you money or time? That would mean something.
If they made a law making it compulsory for you to walk over hot coals would you do it, because it's the law?
 

phoneJunky

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
6,253
and if they just added 10c to the fuel levy back then instead of this circus, we would have already paid for this by now

With maintenance (which cost a lot of money) a highways lifespan can be stretched to 20 years, whereafter you need to redo the whole stretch of highway (which is the same amount of money). So that 10c would be a permanent fixture just for GFIP phase 1 and it would have to increase with inflation and additional to counteract the more efficient cars. Like most things, the initial cost isn't the problem (Well for us is still was). I am pretty sure SANRAL would have taken a ring-fenced fuel levy if they could get it.
 

Bismuth

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
3,743
My etoll bill hit R10K. And its going to keep on climbing.
Last time I received one, it was over R20k, but that was early last year, and have since sold the car. Yet to receive one for the new(er) car.
 

Foxhound5366

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
7,874
If they made a law making it compulsory for you to walk over hot coals would you do it, because it's the law?
Tsek with your strawman argument. When I get asked to do that, I'll evaluate it. Paying e-tolls on a highway I occasionally use, and which I can see is better-maintained than most highways in South Africa (travelled through the Eastern Cape or Limpopo recently?), I'll do that with a smile all day long.
 

PsyWulf

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
11,120
Tsek with your strawman argument. When I get asked to do that, I'll evaluate it. Paying e-tolls on a highway I occasionally use, and which I can see is better-maintained than most highways in South Africa (travelled through the Eastern Cape or Limpopo recently?), I'll do that with a smile all day long.
Thing is you'd seemingly happily do many things that most would frown upon

Personal tastes aside,not sure how legally enforceable an illegally tolled road (no alternative provided) notwithstanding where there was clear collusion and price gauging. Thus the state's current quandary

Laws cannot trump constitutional rights for the sake of it

The essence of ORT is fine,if the fuel levies are adjusted accordingly. But double taxing a specific road for an indefinite period at a rate that was not agreed or properly held to public consultation. And then having that cost being uncapped due to "admin" overhead is nonsense and inexcusable in any sensible society
 
  • Like
Reactions: Swa

supersunbird

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
55,619
Maybe if everyone paid their e-tolls, the planned maintenance of the road surfaces could take place. Isn't that how tollroads work? Constant maintenance at a cost?

Address all the other points too then I will give weight to this counter point, not that it matters really, it was initially surfaced badly, poor workmanship, so the construction company must address that.
 

supersunbird

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
55,619
Dude, we live in a welfare state. Did you miss the part where people were desperate for their R350/month grants for COVID-19? Are you a qualified accountant that you get to look at all the levies on the fuel bill, and where each is spent, and you have determined to what extent each is "wasted" or spent as required? I think the basic principle is that the highways were always going to be paid for by a tax, and the government decided that only people who used the highways should pay for it (with an elaborate tolling system) rather than tacking on a new national fuel levy to cover it (or even just diverting funds from the existing levies). I've said this before: the one time the government tries to actually put taxation into our hands like adults, we throw all our toys. This is exactly why SARS doesn't leave PAYE tax to voluntary payments from employees, but takes it directly from employers. If South Africans get a whiff of a chance to absolve themselves of a responsibility, they'll grab it.

But not all people who do use it pay for it, I just demonstrated that many stretches can be travelled for free without SANRAL even being aware of the trip, since no gantry is passed under. I do it all the time.

Another example. Get on at Proefplaas Interchange (N4), drive all the way to Rigel offramp... no gantry passed under, no toll due, and I used a GFIP road to do that trip. It's wholly unfair and should not be talked up nor defended by anyone, I can still understand very unhappily paying for it, but not defending it.
 

Foxhound5366

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
7,874
Address all the other points too then I will give weight to this counter point, not that it matters really, it was initially surfaced badly, poor workmanship, so the construction company must address that.
Yes, because that line of logic is always applicable: only if I'm living in a perfect world, can you ask me to do anything. Let me have one question or be unhappy about anything, and I may then start picking and choosing which laws I wish to live by.

Hello anarchy. Nice to meet you.
 

Foxhound5366

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
7,874
Thing is you'd seemingly happily do many things that most would frown upon

Personal tastes aside,not sure how legally enforceable an illegally tolled road (no alternative provided) notwithstanding where there was clear collusion and price gauging. Thus the state's current quandary

Laws cannot trump constitutional rights for the sake of it

The essence of ORT is fine,if the fuel levies are adjusted accordingly. But double taxing a specific road for an indefinite period at a rate that was not agreed or properly held to public consultation. And then having that cost being uncapped due to "admin" overhead is nonsense and inexcusable in any sensible society
Yes I know, I pay my TV licence too. I'm a lost cause hey.

You're making these arguments as if it makes a difference. It doesn't. The laws are there, the toll-roads are up.

The only thing remaining to be seen is at which point the government will decide to enforce eTolling compliance, and with which penalties. I wonder if the judge will be interested in your defence above when it comes time for it? I suspect not.
 
Top