Earth Hour 20h30-21h30 25/03/2017

[cupcake]

I hope you've learnt your lesson now!

It should be 3 trees though, 2 for the candles and an extra one to improve the situation...

Alright then 3 water wise tree's and a couple of solar lamps coming up

 

[biometrics]

Alright then 3 water wise tree's and a couple of solar lamps coming up

And stop breeding ffs!

 

[cupcake]

And stop breeding ffs!

I will not argue with that LOL

 

[Arthur]

Alright then 3 water wise tree's and a couple of solar lamps coming up

With Zille picking up a spot of bother, just make damn sure they're 100% indigenous trees. Where you draw the line as to how far back you go to be indigenous might have to be defended in court.

 

[Arthur]

And stop breeding ffs!

In what universe are human beings not as much a part of the environment as anything else? Everything we are and do - and all our products and byproducts - are as natural as any microbe or whale and their products and byproducts.

If you love the environment you'll have more children.

 

[Dave]

Good idea. Then buy these consol solar jars. We've got 5 of them which we use for evenings outside as well as the inevitable power cuts.

View attachment 426192

Have you seen the negatives of solar panel manufacturing? if you want to be dirty haired, sandal wearing, earth hour tofu eating vegan you shouldn't be using solar cells.

When it gets dark you go to bed, when the sun comes up you get up...

Also, for you, when you want to go home from work, you walk...

Will someone think of the environment

 

[Arthur]

Have you seen the negatives of solar panel manufacturing? if you want to be dirty haired, sandal wearing, earth hour tofu eating vegan you shouldn't be using solar cells.

When it gets dark you go to bed, when the sun comes up you get up...

Also, for you, when you want to go home from work, you walk...

Will someone think of the environment

Amen

 

[saor]

In what universe are human beings not as much a part of the environment as anything else? Everything we are and do - and all our products and byproducts - are as natural as any microbe or whale and their products and byproducts.

You're speaking as if there's only one way to use the word 'natural', and there's not. We use it in multiple ways.
The first definition for 'natural' that comes up:

1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
"carrots contain a natural antiseptic that fights bacteria"

Even ignoring that^ definition and regarding everything that happens in the universe as being a natural progression of creation (ie. birds and baths are both natural as things which exist within our universe) we still use the word differently for the most part:

Excessive sugar consumption had been linked to type-2 diabetes.
Our bodies have not evolved to deal with this much sugar.
The amount of sugar we eat isn't natural.

The rainforest cannot recover quick enough.
We remove trees at too fast a rate.
The amount of trees we remove isn't natural.

 

[cupcake]

Have you seen the negatives of solar panel manufacturing? if you want to be dirty haired, sandal wearing, earth hour tofu eating vegan you shouldn't be using solar cells.

When it gets dark you go to bed, when the sun comes up you get up...

Also, for you, when you want to go home from work, you walk...

Will someone think of the environment

That is very interesting I have always wondered if the manufacturing process and transportation of solar panels consumed more energy than was saved in the long run, please enlighten us.

 

[Arthur]

You're speaking as if there's only one way to use the word 'natural', and there's not. We use it in multiple ways.
The first definition for 'natural' that comes up:

Hehe, indeed. I know the word is equivocal. However, the point is still worth making: the more you zoom out from a local parochial view the more you see that humankind and its artefacts are actually part of Nature. We should also bear this in mind when considering environment on a planetary scale.

 

[Geoff.D]

Well in parts of Centurion over the weekend, there were two enforced periods of "Earth Hours". The power failures lasted about 3 hours each time. Inexplicable power failures. Do these count?

As to the life cycle calculations of power savings and the effects this has on CO2 emissions? Do yourself a favour as a believer that you are doing your bit by switching to Solar Energy Systems. Don't do the calculations! Your belief system might not stand the shock.

And BTW, the same will apply if you do the life cycle calculations for CFL lamps.

 

[cupcake]

Well in parts of Centurion over the weekend, there were two enforced periods of "Earth Hours". The power failures slated about 3 hours each time. with inexplicable power failures. Do these count?

As to the life cycle calculations of power savings and the effects this has on CO2 emissions? Do yourself a favour as a believer that you are doing your bit by switching to Solar Energy Systems. Don't do the calculations! Your belief system might not stand the shock.

And BTW, the same will apply if you do the life cycle calculations for CFL lamps.

The small amount of research I have done has a large variable and it seems largely dependant on the environmental policies of the company that is supplying the panels.

 

[Geoff.D]

The small amount of research I have done has a large variable and it seems largely dependant on the environmental policies of the company that is supplying the panels.

Precisely! There is only one scientifically correct way to do the calculations. BUT when the answer comes out and the answer is not in line with the expectation, what does a company/lobby group do? They change their policies and strategies until they get the answer they are looking for, that's what ! :twisted:

 

[Dave]

That is very interesting I have always wondered if the manufacturing process and transportation of solar panels consumed more energy than was saved in the long run, please enlighten us.

Plenty of articles around that talk about the negatives in solar panels, if you're as much of a climate evangelist as you've made out in this thread maybe you should research it further. The only way to live the way you seem to feel is best would be to wean yourself off electricity altogether.

Here's an example:

Fabricating the panels requires caustic chemicals such as sodium hydroxide and hydrofluoric acid, and the process uses water as well as electricity, the production of which emits greenhouse gases. It also creates waste. These problems could undercut solar's ability to fight climate change and reduce environmental toxics.

Varying regulations and manufacturing practices make it difficult to get standardized data about the environmental footprint of photovoltaic panels. A study released in May by Northwestern University and Argonne National Laboratory found that the carbon footprint of a panel from China is twice that of one from Europe, because China has fewer environmental standards and more coal-fired power plants.

China has already seen a backlash. Panel manufacturer Jinko Solar, for example, has faced protests and legal action since one of its plants, in the eastern province of Zhejiang, was accused of dumping toxic waste into a nearby river.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...r-panel-manufacturing-sustainability-ranking/

This is what solar panel manufacturers are doing:

The protests began on Thursday, when as many as 500 people stormed a compound owned by the New York-listed Jinko Solar Holding Co, official news agency Xinhua reported on Sunday.

Protesters overturned vehicles before being dispersed, but they continued to camp outside the factory until the riot police with helmets, vests, batons and shields arrived late on Sunday.

Toxic waste from the factory, which manufactures photovoltaic panels, cells and wafers, killed large numbers of fish in a nearby river, and authorities had already ordered the company to suspend operations, the news agency said.

Protesters put up banners with the slogan "Return our lives to us, stay away from Jinko," according to photographs published on the website of the National Business Daily newspaper (www.nbd.com.cn) on Sunday.

An elderly woman who did not want to give her name complained bitterly about the local government's tactics.

"The factory has been polluting us all this while and now that we make some noise, the government shuts us up. They are all in this together, now we just have to die here silently. You can see all these riot police here, we are just helpless villagers."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-solar-plant-protest-idUSTRE78H0FL20110918


Use solar panels because it's a convenient method to make cheap(ish) electricity outside the state supplier, but don't think it's some utopian environmentally friendly thing that doesn't harm the environment.

Oh yes, and do some research into how much effort is being put into recycling old solar panels...

 

[cupcake]

Plenty of articles around that talk about the negatives in solar panels, if you're as much of a climate evangelist as you've made out in this thread maybe you should research it further. The only way to live the way you seem to feel is best would be to wean yourself off electricity altogether.

Here's an example:



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...r-panel-manufacturing-sustainability-ranking/

This is what solar panel manufacturers are doing:


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-solar-plant-protest-idUSTRE78H0FL20110918


Use solar panels because it's a convenient method to make cheap(ish) electricity outside the state supplier, but don't think it's some utopian environmentally friendly thing that doesn't harm the environment.

Oh yes, and do some research into how much effort is being put into recycling old solar panels...

We have a gas geyser and oven because it works out to be the most efficient use of energy for us and don't have any solar panels as yet so this is definitely something to consider when the time comes.

A "evangelist" might be a bit extreme as my efforts beyond this thread are my own actions and conversations amongst close friends. I am always ready to learn new stuff and make changes to contribute more for example I recently learned that PET 1 plastic cannot be recycled in Port Elizabeth and I was buying all my fruit in this packaging so I now pick stuff in cardboard boxes or select loose fruit. Simple stuff adds up and if everyone contributed it would be very significant.

 

[Geoff.D]

Plenty of articles around that talk about the negatives in solar panels, if you're as much of a climate evangelist as you've made out in this thread maybe you should research it further. The only way to live the way you seem to feel is best would be to wean yourself off electricity altogether. .................

Very informative post thank you.
As Arthur has pointed out in his posts, we are all part of Nature anyway. So just by existing, we will impact on "Nature".

The total life cycle calculations should include the costs in energy used to process ALL the waste products of manufacturing and the ultimate disposal of used panels as well. Considering that the prime source of Energy is the burning of fossil fuels and maybe Nuclear, the COs emission calculation from birth to death of solar, ends up looking pretty bad, and the one I have seen, is actually negative in terms of its impact on the environment.

In other words, you might as well just burn the fuel.

 

[cupcake]

Very informative post thank you.
As Arthur has pointed out in his posts, we are all part of Nature anyway. So just by existing, we will impact on "Nature".

The total life cycle calculations should include the costs in energy used to process ALL the waste products of manufacturing and the ultimate disposal of used panels as well. Considering that the prime source of Energy is the burning of fossil fuels and maybe Nuclear, the COs emission calculation from birth to death of solar, ends up looking pretty bad, and the one I have seen, is actually negative in terms of its impact on the environment.

In other words, you might as well just burn the fuel.

The problem with that is that fuel is not a infinite resource.

 

[Arthur]

The problem with that is that fuel is not a infinite resource.

It's not really a problem. It just takes creative thinking and some effort and determination to tap into newer energy sources, eg nuclear fission and fusion could solve our probs today. Not to speak of new things in the fewcha. Besides, nothing in the universe is infinite. In a few billion years we'll in any case have to move out of the neighbourhood because our local sun will balloon and then collapse. Only the energy-rich will be able to make the move.

 

[saor]

...the more you zoom out from a local parochial view the more you see that humankind and its artefacts are actually part of Nature.

How does making that assessment (it's natural) change the value of the artefact? If we lived in a world where all things natural were good then sure - I'd see your point in the relevance of how we consider things but...we surely gauge things by how they affect the world, not on whether they're natural or not?

 

[Dave]

The problem with that is that fuel is not a infinite resource.

It also fails to take into account that the burning of fossil fuels caused increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.

But Geoff is right about people needing to look at the whole process when considering solar from an environmental POV, from transportation of the raw materials through manufacture, transportation of the finished product and also include disposal of the waste by products and eventual recycling of the panels. They aren't the holy grail that some think...

Buy them to become (slightly) self sufficient, not because of some impression that they're the tofu eating vegan's nirvana solution.