Eastern Province Kings rugby discussion thread

[SukkaFoo]

Sorry if this was suggested before, but why not implement the following? We have 6 teams that want to play and only 5 spots avaliable. Forget about promotion relegation and let the worst performing side in SR be replaced by the team who sat out.

Personally I totally agree with this approach. At least the team that is out of super rugby can plan for 12 months as to what is definitely going to happen, and tbh the team that finishes last really doesn't deserve to be there. The kings now have little to no chance of going up again, unless the lions suffer massively to injuries thru the grueling super rugby season, which is also unfair on them if this was to happen.

Really no winners in this process.

 

[BeVonk!]

Why have the Lions historically been so kark? It's Gauteng, the economic engine of the SA, surely money is not an issue. RAU and other structures surely allow proper sourcing of talent. Population is massive. Weak/inept/corrupt administration?

The problems started when Luyt and Laurie Mains left. There are a lot of variations to the story of what happened. The Lions were doing very well under Mains and the Cats played in two SR semi finals under him. But he and Luyt had serious differences and Mains walked out. Luyt was then worked out. Luyt saw the Lions as his own personal property and it had all kinds of implications, especially financially. When Luyt walked he walked away with a lot of money.

The union then started to fall apart. A very large sum of money was invested in Australia and this investment collapsed. The union lost a serious fortune.

The quality of administrators went downhill fast after 2002.

This is what happens where money is god. The Lions was the richest rugby body in the world in 2002. They very quickly lost that position after the Australian debacle. The Cats became too expensive to run with too many large unions sharing one slice. The teams involved fought over every penny causing huge rifts in the squad. Financially the Cats was a disaster for the Lions and Cheetahs. When the Lions still had cash to burn it didn't really matter but after 2002 the well dried quickly.

All went downhill until very recently. Kevin de Klerk started to stem the downward spiral and things started to pick up again. The 2011 CC win was proof of that. But then injuries hit the Lions squad very hard and they entered the 2012 SR season without 18 of their 2011 CC squad players. This lead to Mitchell getting axed as the players revolted against the very harsh military style training regime that they believed lead to the many injuries. This then lead to a very poor 2012 SR season which lead to their exclusion.

There is obvious much more to this. Much intrigue also depending on who you talk to.

 

[BeVonk!]

BTW, Luyt invested his Lions money in the Bulls after the Bulls struggled for a long time to get on their feet (end of 90's and start of 2000's). It was his revenge. The Bulls quickly became what the Lions were.

 

[undesign]

The problems started when Luyt and Laurie Mains left. There are a lot of variations to the story of what happened. The Lions were doing very well under Mains and the Cats played in two SR semi finals under him. But he and Luyt had serious differences and Mains walked out. Luyt was then worked out. Luyt saw the Lions as his own personal property and it had all kinds of implications, especially financially. When Luyt walked he walked away with a lot of money.

The union then started to fall apart. A very large sum of money was invested in Australia and this investment collapsed. The union lost a serious fortune.

The quality of administrators went downhill fast after 2002.

This is what happens where money is god. The Lions was the richest rugby body in the world in 2002. They very quickly lost that position after the Australian debacle. The Cats became too expensive to run with too many large unions sharing one slice. The teams involved fought over every penny causing huge rifts in the squad. Financially the Cats was a disaster for the Lions and Cheetahs. When the Lions still had cash to burn it didn't really matter but after 2002 the well dried quickly.

All went downhill until very recently. Kevin de Klerk started to stem the downward spiral and things started to pick up again. The 2011 CC win was proof of that. But then injuries hit the Lions squad very hard and they entered the 2012 SR season without 18 of their 2011 CC squad players. This lead to Mitchell getting axed as the players revolted against the very harsh military style training regime that they believed lead to the many injuries. This then lead to a very poor 2012 SR season which lead to their exclusion.

There is obvious much more to this. Much intrigue also depending on who you talk to.

Thanks BV. Makes for interesting reading.

 

[BeVonk!]

The Transvaal/Lions story under Louis Luyt will make a fascinating business study. Wish someone would tackle the topic. It will be a story of amazing success and spectacular failure. It will show the good and bad of one man building and ruling a great sports empire. It will show how a benevolent start evolved into a very greedy end where the king became the alpha and omega.

In the end one must ask whether all the successes was worth it. When Luyt walked away he pressed the unions self destruct button that he installed himself for just this eventuality. But those in Lions rugby had no choice despite knowing this would happen. The situation became Zimbabwe-like and the dictator had to be removed despite the serious cost to the union. The price would be a decade of pain after a decade of glory. 1:1. I wish to believe things will turn around now. De Klerk works harder than any man would to turn things around. I believe the SR fiasco may end up being the best medicine for the union as it rekindled lost passion for the team in Joburg after a decade of suffering.

 

[bwana]

Another one gone?

The Sharks named Kings fullback SP Marais in their 43-man Currie Cup squad.

With the Kings relegated from Super Rugby, the Sharks have targeted Marais as a valuable recruit. The 24-year-old's move to Durban has not been confirmed yet as he needs an official release from the Eastern Cape franchise.

'We’re hoping this happens soon as possible,' explained Sharks director of rugby Brendan Venter. 'SP is coming in as a squad member. Losing Riaan Viljoen [to Japanese club Red Hurricanes] and possibly Louis Ludik means he is a good addition ... a long-term investement. It would be good for SP be at a top union like the Sharks.'

http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/1683

 

[MickeyD]

And Schalk Ferreira, Shaun Venter, Kevin Buys, Wesley Dunlop ....

 

[bwana]

And Schalk Ferreira, Shaun Venter, Kevin Buys, Wesley Dunlop ....

It's kind of like the management doesnt want to win the CC either and get promoted to the first division.

 

[cr@zydude]

Hopefully we get some good money for SP Marais. Getting promoted to the Premier Division seems almost impossible now. is there any offical word on Super Rugby promotion/relegation matches next year?

 

[bwana]

Hopefully we get some good money for SP Marais. Getting promoted to the Premier Division seems almost impossible now. is there any offical word on Super Rugby promotion/relegation matches next year?

You mean have they changed their minds since last year?

The promotion/relegation series will also be in place in 2014 and 2015 - at which point the broadcast contract expires.

Let's hope they haven't.

 

[bwana]

More on the exodus… http://www.supersport.com/rugby/sa-rugby/news/130805/And_now_the_Kings_exodus_begins

 

[BeVonk!]

It's becoming like our local cricket ... it is almost impossible to keep track of who plays where these days. Players hire themselves out to the highest bidder and loyalty plays no role any more. Here today, gone tomorrow.

The Bulls must have enough players to fill three SR sides by now. Is the plan to have a Bulls player living in every street of Pretoria?

 

[MickeyD]

It's becoming like our local cricket ... it is almost impossible to keep track of who plays where these days. Players hire themselves out to the highest bidder and loyalty plays no role any more. Here today, gone tomorrow.

The Bulls must have enough players to fill three SR sides by now. Is the plan to have a Bulls player living in every street of Pretoria?

And half of them come from the Eastern cape !!!!!!!!!

 

[BeVonk!]

The thing that many miss is that the regional model is dead. The franchises are like Premier League football clubs. Players are commodities. The old regional model died with amateur rugby. Nobody cares where a player comes from any more. Do the Bulls care where a player was born and schooled? Do the European clubs care? They don't. It is not about that at all any more. No use trying to prop up an old paradigm. Any team that wants to survive and succeed today must do so as a viable business entity. That is what professional rugby is. Manchester United has more supporters outside Manchester. I believe this is where Cheeky et al mounted an old horse.

 

[BeVonk!]

The Bulls is as much about Pretoria as Manchester United is about Manchester. That teams are based in specific cities and regions is not of any real consequence any more. When it comes to professional clubs people support across geographic borders. That is why Johannesburg is so complex. People there come from all over and they do not feel bound to support the Lions because it represents Johanneburg. There are probably as many Sharks and Bulls fans in Joburg as there as Lions fans. It is about the brand these days. It is not about a region/city. For some it is, but not nearly like it used to be. How many people in the EC are actually EP Kings fans? And how many are Bulls and Sharks fans that will not change? Hmmmm?

 

[thestaggy]

It's becoming like our local cricket ... it is almost impossible to keep track of who plays where these days. Players hire themselves out to the highest bidder and loyalty plays no role any more. Here today, gone tomorrow.

The Bulls must have enough players to fill three SR sides by now. Is the plan to have a Bulls player living in every street of Pretoria?

That is a bit unfair. They are punishing their bodies for a living. I'm really glad that JC Janse van Rensburg stayed with the Lions through this rough patch and his departure is a huge loss, but he has the right to leave and earn the maximum he can for his efforts without being begrudged.

As for the Bulls, they lost 8 of their own contracted Boks to foreign clubs, unable to match salaries. Steyn, Chiliboy, Juandre Kruger, Dewald and Jacques Potgieter, Jano Vermaak, Wynand Olivier and Kirchner have left or will leave the Bulls, hence they are raiding everyone else locally.

Simply put, top SA unions cannot match European & Japanese clubs financially and in turn the smaller/poorer local unions cannot fend the big SA unions off when they want to replace the players they lose.

 

[bwana]

Despite the best efforts of the ref EP Kings managed to eek out a victory over Border last night… 9-3.

 

[IceQB]

What do the refs have against us?

 

[Choppie81]

Well at the end of this season we will probably see the kings won't even make it to the top of the 1st devision to stand a chance to get into the currie cup showing they don't deserve super rugby.

Griquas deserve a relagation match more than the kings.

 

[OGroteKoning]

What do the refs have against us?

Yes, I'm sure the refs have "How to screw EP Kings" on the meeting agenda.