Skerminkel

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There is a big difference to collecting fines by a provincial authority and a utility company collecting their daily bread. DA playing for the crowd again. If they were true leaders, they would have taken up the fight a decade ago.

Their saving grace and reason they ought to be in government next year is that the ANC is infinitely worse.
 

Allin

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As I have it the same system will be used to attempt to collect toll fees
 

LazyLion

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... they would have taken up the fight a decade ago.

um, they always been opposed to tolls. They were asking for more info from day one.
When the rates were announced they stepped it up to the next level.
 

Skywalker42

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um, they always been opposed to tolls. They were asking for more info from day one.
When the rates were announced they stepped it up to the next level.

The problem started long before e-tolls. It started when our property that we paid for was given away to a corporation for free.

No party made a fuss then, including the DA. The roads are now the (legal) property of sanral, but not not necessarily their lawful property. We should rather protest that action, the transfer of the property, than the e-tolls. We are protesting against the symptom of a problem rather than the cause of the problem. Which is of course that the land on which our roads were built have been legally (not lawfully) stolen by sanral with the help of a piece of paper called an act of parliament.
 
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Wasabee!

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There is a big difference to collecting fines by a provincial authority and a utility company collecting their daily bread. DA playing for the crowd again. If they were true leaders, they would have taken up the fight a decade ago.

Their saving grace and reason they ought to be in government next year is that the ANC is infinitely worse.

Funny how people from far can always talk people's efforts into the ground.
 

BTTB

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The problem started long before e-tolls. It started when our property that we paid for was given away to a corporation for free.

No party made a fuss then, including the DA. The roads are now the (legal) property of sanral, but not not necessarily their lawful property. We should rather protest that action, the transfer of the property, than the e-tolls. We are protesting against the symptom of a problem rather than the cause of the problem. Which is of course that the land on which our roads were built have been legally (not lawfully) stolen by sanral with the help of a piece of paper called an act of parliament.
Agreed. I am not sure how the whole process started and was implemented, investigate that process and I bet it was just another volume of paperwork to peruse that everyone missed and was advertised by some small clip in the classified section of the paper.
Even if people were part of this process and objected it would probably not have made any difference as in the end they would have been deemed part of the public participation process and in essence rubber stamped the whole thing. That is the way Government operates and unless you strongly object by abnormal channels like media coverage or court interdicts, most of these processes pass through and get signed into law.
At each stage someone was making millions from the public participation process via some Government tender.
The system is hopelessly flawed and here we sit back wondering how did SANRAL get all that power when in reality a Roads Agency should be a non profit making organisation and it all leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth, as our Government or certain members of our Government knew very well what was going down right at the beginning stages and that was to syphon money from the South African taxpayer with Tolls and to enrich certain connected individuals and overseas investors and there also seems to be a whole lot of guarantees offered in the process too and guess who has to pay for that, us.

The whole Act should be declared unconstitutional and be sent back to the drawing board. Model our Roads Agency like our Namibian counterpart. "The Namibian Roads Authority is a non-profit, mission-driven organisation that strives continuously to achieve a safe and efficient national road network of Namibia"

The DA if they want to do anything should adopt a new stance, take SANRAL and all the Government Departments in question as Respondents to court and have the whole thing investigated and declared null and void as it was modelled to suit investors not South Africans for one.
 
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HavocXphere

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Model our Roads Agency like our Namibian counterpart. "The Namibian Roads Authority is a non-profit
Like that is ever going to happen in a country run by corrupt tenderpreneurs.:rolleyes:

I suspect we'll just have to wait another 20 years until the masses wake up & see that the current gov is useless in all respects.
 

noxibox

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According to Ollis, the impossibility of enforcing compliance with e-tolling is, in itself, enough reason to stop the implementation of e-tolls in Gauteng.
Let's see the DA take that attitude to other things.
 

Bern

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There is a big difference to collecting fines by a provincial authority and a utility company collecting their daily bread. DA playing for the crowd again. If they were true leaders, they would have taken up the fight a decade ago.

Their saving grace and reason they ought to be in government next year is that the ANC is infinitely worse.

This

um, they always been opposed to tolls. They were asking for more info from day one.
When the rates were announced they stepped it up to the next level.

SANRAL was very sneaky and kept information hidden, that is why everyone took so long to react. If the tolling was 8c p/km and the roads were really MUCH better (they are not really looking good the last time I was up that way) people may have been open to the idea, but not in the current format where the quality of the primary work is not up to scratch (obvious tenderpreneurship) and on top of that there is more money going to systems than the actual reason for them in the first place.
 

BTTB

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SANRAL was very sneaky and kept information hidden
Indeed, some arbitrary public participation process as I mentioned in post #9 where some tender winner creates a document for circulation based around Governments objectives, places an advert in the classified section of the paper and we are supposed to know it exists.
What happens in reality is a few people do get wind of the public participation process, make comments via written or oral submissions, the oral comments are meaningless and the written objections get added in some addendum where nobody knows where to look. At the end of the day the policy document becomes law and the people that participated in the public participation process are deemed to be part and parcel of that process and basically rubber stamp it into law.

I have seen this process play itself out time and time again with our Local Authority, you get an EIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) of all things in the mail about some development on your doorstep, but if you delve into the paperwork by actually going to the Council Offices, it is already a done deal. We had one controversial development in our area that people objected to, all that we had to object to was an EIA and when I investigated the paperwork properly the lease for the land was already signed by our Mayor at the time, Madam Zille of the DA. So what was the point of objecting, the plane had already taken off and was about to land at its destination? The EIA was only sent out because it is a requirement of law.

What should have happened, like with SANRAL, they should have played open cards by saying they are a profit making organisation with local and international shareholders that want to place tolls on our roads to tax us further as the fuel levy is being spent elsewhere, end of story.
Then we know what to do.

The South African NATIONAL Roads Agency Limited is no more NATIONAL than the NATIONAL Lottery, much like the Federal Reserve isn't exactly Federal, they all have shareholders and in some instances nobody knows who or bothers to find out.
 
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Vrotappel

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Feb 22, 2005
Messages
23,118
There is a big difference to collecting fines by a provincial authority and a utility company collecting their daily bread. DA playing for the crowd again. If they were true leaders, they would have taken up the fight a decade ago.

Their saving grace and reason they ought to be in government next year is that the ANC is infinitely worse.

It's the same or similar acts that governs it? SANRAL is not a utility company by any definition. Maybe you are missing the bigger picture due to DA hatin'?
 

SirFooK'nG

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Feb 13, 2009
Messages
8,394
There is a big difference to collecting fines by a provincial authority and a utility company collecting their daily bread. DA playing for the crowd again. If they were true leaders, they would have taken up the fight a decade ago.

Their saving grace and reason they ought to be in government next year is that the ANC is infinitely worse.

Regardless to who the collection agency be, fines need to be sent registered mail, which they are not... so do the math...
 

Bern

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Messages
2,675
Indeed, some arbitrary public participation process as I mentioned in post #9 where some tender winner creates a document for circulation based around Governments objectives, places an advert in the classified section of the paper and we are supposed to know it exists.
What happens in reality is a few people do get wind of the public participation process, make comments via written or oral submissions, the oral comments are meaningless and the written objections get added in some addendum where nobody knows where to look. At the end of the day the policy document becomes law and the people that participated in the public participation process are deemed to be part and parcel of that process and basically rubber stamp it into law.

I have seen this process play itself out time and time again with our Local Authority, you get an EIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) of all things in the mail about some development on your doorstep, but if you delve into the paperwork by actually going to the Council Offices, it is already a done deal. We had one controversial development in our area that people objected to, all that we had to object to was an EIA and when I investigated the paperwork properly the lease for the land was already signed by our Mayor at the time, Madam Zille of the DA. So what was the point of objecting, the plane had already taken off and was about to land at its destination? The EIA was only sent out because it is a requirement of law.

What should have happened, like with SANRAL, they should have played open cards by saying they are a profit making organisation with local and international shareholders that want to place tolls on our roads to tax us further as the fuel levy is being spent elsewhere, end of story.
Then we know what to do.

The South African NATIONAL Roads Agency Limited is no more NATIONAL than the NATIONAL Lottery, much like the Federal Reserve isn't exactly Federal, they all have shareholders and in some instances nobody knows who or bothers to find out.

I don't have a problem with SANRAL owning the land as a government agency, it makes sense if they stick to their mandate. I completely agree they have no right to then lease that land out we expect them to curate to for some project that exempts them from providing the service they are supposed to and for which they were given curatorship of said land in the first place.

To make that more clear:
Sanral is given land to curate to be able to build, maintain and improve road infrastructure for national roads. Funds are specifically sourced by means of fuel levies and part of the mandate it to ensure public access to use these roads.

Tolling to me fails all of these, they are passing on the curatorship responsibility to a 3rd party, they are using an additional, unnecessary funding model duplicating the existing on and they are not providing free access to the land and roads to the general public, in effect they are privatising a public road (you need to pay a toll to gain use). Toll roads are supposed to be alternatives, I really can't see how this is actually legal.

Had they implemented a set of new "speed lanes" you needed to pay tolls to access it would be OK as they would still be covering the original mandate while offering an additional service, but that is not the case - I can't hang in the left lane to avoid tolls.

This is also not the same as the congestion type tolls/taxes in cities like London as those are for travel in the city, not access between cities. It is aimed at congestion management, not infrastructure maintenance.

Lastly why not have spent that money on better public transport?? A Gautrain that uses rail standards that match the rest of our rail system, a BRT style bus service with dedicated lanes that is both secure, reliable, operates to all areas at convenient times (as in from early to very late)?? Surely that is a better way to blow R100 billion or whatever the true etolling cost will be.
 

BTTB

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Feb 6, 2004
Messages
8,071
Thanks, I live in the Cape, so doesn't affect me directly, but I really am not happy about the whole thing.
Me too.
Closer to home SANRAL almost got it right to place Tolls on the Garden Route between George and Sedgefield and Sedgefield and Knysna, I know people on the Ratepayers Association in that area that had to work very hard on getting that squashed a few years back as SANRAL was quite persistent and kept at it. Long story, no energy to write another page on SANRAL's opportunism, they aren't worth it.
Things like this make you lose respect for your Government as you know they are not for us, the citizens.
 
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