Eskom warns it may have to shut down 16,000MW after pollution exemptions declined

[AlphaJohn]

It’s for the best. For your KIDS health.

FIFY

Our kids gonna sit with our f ups re climate change.

 

[Swa]

Where are the costs of the decommissioning of the solar and wind costs? Also where the costs for the peaking plants that need to run to keep power running storage solutions are still expensive as well. Until there are cheaper and more environmentally friendly batteries, nuclear is expensive to build but works out cheaper in the long run.
It's like buying a house vs renting, the bought house is expensive at first but eventually works out cheaper if you keep it for a certain amount of time. Solar and Wind are cheaper initially until you need to put in other costs to actually have power when you need it, not when it can generate it.

You're kidding right? You can't seriously be comparing solar and wind to nuclear waste. Nuclear is also not that reliable. The only countries that've managed to go all nuclear are the ones that still import backup power. Otherwise you have to seriously over provision thereby pushing up the costs.

Renewables are exactly like buying that house, expensive initially but works out a lot cheaper after a length of time.

Unless Eskom is lying in their annual report, it seems to me that nuclear is the cheapest source of electricity in SA at the moment at R0.105/kWh...A quarter of the price of coal and at least 20x cheaper than IPPs.

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Those figures don't include all the operating and capital costs. Koeberg is due for a major overall if they want to run it for another 20 years. Also decommissioning isn't included as no country even has an idea how to calculate a final figure. The last round of IPPs came in cheaper than all these as it's a fixed cost.

 

[JohnStarr]

Go for it...just make sure you've invested in cleaner energy to substitute for that.
The rest of the world couldn't give a shlt about Eskom or their feelings. Just comply.

 

[Lupus]

You're kidding right? You can't seriously be comparing solar and wind to nuclear waste. Nuclear is also not that reliable. The only countries that've managed to go all nuclear are the ones that still import backup power. Otherwise you have to seriously over provision thereby pushing up the costs.

Renewables are exactly like buying that house, expensive initially but works out a lot cheaper after a length of time.


Those figures don't include all the operating and capital costs. Koeberg is due for a major overall if they want to run it for another 20 years. Also decommissioning isn't included as no country even has an idea how to calculate a final figure. The last round of IPPs came in cheaper than all these as it's a fixed cost.

Renewables are more like renting the house, not buying it, as it's cheap at first but it gets more expensive over time, especially as you renewable fans keep forgetting one important thing, when the resource isn't there, you still need something to provide power... Which is currently rather expensive and is why the costs of renewables isn't cheap, as the factor for gas/diesel backups are not factored into the solar prices.
I mean even the guys who have solar arrays at home have a generator just in case, as a few solid cloudy days can dramatically drop your power generation. Now put that on a wider scale and see what happens, I mean hell every place that has switched to more renewables has the highest tariffs for electricity vs their counterparts, I literally went on and showed that the price of electricity in the fabled South Australia is almost twice the price of North Australia, yet people will go oh yeah but that's not the wholesale price or whatever other excuse.
So the user is paying more then their northern brethern but it's okay cause it's not the wholesale price?

 

[mypetcow]

Nuclear is also not that reliable. The only countries that've managed to go all nuclear are the ones that still import backup power. Otherwise you have to seriously over provision thereby pushing up the costs.

I afraid you need to update your facts a little.
1. Nuclear is reliable (I don’t need to add supporting documentation from the British, Americans, Germans, Swiss, Russians and most importantly the French). Also nuclear submarines…

2. ‘Import backup power’. Is is a very much island mentality. All countries that can try to interconnect with their neighbours because sometimes you produce more than you need and your neighbour might need it, other times it’s the other way around. Which brings me to:

3. You don’t ‘overprovision’ electricity production. Production must always be equal to demand. When you turn on your lights Khusile ramps up a bit. When we all go to sleep at night power stations are ramped down. Providing more power than you need is like pressing in the clutch at 120km/h on the highway while not taking your foot off the accelerator. Your engine will and in this case the power stations will overrev and tear themselves apart.

 

[Benedict A55h0le]

Again lol.

Again lol x2

There is a reason why threads pop up here titled: "How to hide your solar panels". You would like us to believe people are not affected by an unfair system forced on them. So why do these threads pop up? To hide solar panels for the fun? lol is on you. The only reason I have not bought a solar system is because I know that this investment is not what you think it is as authorities extract more money in other ways to make up for the shortfall and also to increase their own salaries by 15% plus bonuses.

 

[Lupus]

I afraid you need to update your facts a little.
1. Nuclear is reliable (I don’t need to add supporting documentation from the British, Americans, Germans, Swiss, Russians and most importantly the French). Also nuclear submarines…

2. ‘Import backup power’. Is is a very much island mentality. All countries that can try to interconnect with their neighbours because sometimes you produce more than you need and your neighbour might need it, other times it’s the other way around. Which brings me to:

3. You don’t ‘overprovision’ electricity production. Production must always be equal to demand. When you turn on your lights Khusile ramps up a bit. When we all go to sleep at night power stations are ramped down. Providing more power than you need is like pressing in the clutch at 120km/h on the highway while not taking your foot off the accelerator. Your engine will and in this case the power stations will overrev and tear themselves apart.

Just putting this here

 

[Paulsie]

It's called a "Just Energy Transition" (JET).

Just Energy Transition (JET) - Eskom

Eskom’s Just Energy Transition (JET) Office was established earlier in 2020 and has made significant strides to progress the evolution for transition towards

www.eskom.co.za

And cleaner energy is NOT more expensive than Eskom, just consider the facts:
REIPPPP came in less than Eskom cost of coal.
Renewable creates more jobs.

According to my reading of the article:

• Eskom is asking for permission to break the law
• Eskom wants to pollute even more - current output is 7 x higher than legal limit of 500mg/Nm3 x 7 = 3,500mg/Nm3, until 2025 but Eskom wanted to push the pollution limit higher to 4,000mg/Nm3 until 2030 (for free)
• Eskom wants to cause more environmental damage and deaths (for free)
• Eskom had made minimal effort to fully comply with the standards first published in 2010.
• Eskom's Medupi is brand new and does not comply with environmental laws
• Eskom is only able to charge (not low) rates because it pollutes, else we would be paying R4.00+ per kWh
• Eskom can ask the minister to break the law - I must have read wrongly that the law is supreme in ZA.

If we consider this, then Eskom makes a pretty good case for renewables.

That is absolutely correct - it's called passing the costs. A true cost is not reflected in the cost of the final product (in this case electricity). Someone else has to pay for cleanup and health damages.

 

[Medres]

But just how much of that installed capacity is actually working?

Now that's the right question to ask

 

[Swa]

Renewables are more like renting the house, not buying it, as it's cheap at first but it gets more expensive over time, especially as you renewable fans keep forgetting one important thing, when the resource isn't there, you still need something to provide power... Which is currently rather expensive and is why the costs of renewables isn't cheap, as the factor for gas/diesel backups are not factored into the solar prices.
I mean even the guys who have solar arrays at home have a generator just in case, as a few solid cloudy days can dramatically drop your power generation. Now put that on a wider scale and see what happens, I mean hell every place that has switched to more renewables has the highest tariffs for electricity vs their counterparts, I literally went on and showed that the price of electricity in the fabled South Australia is almost twice the price of North Australia, yet people will go oh yeah but that's not the wholesale price or whatever other excuse.
So the user is paying more then their northern brethern but it's okay cause it's not the wholesale price?

No it gets less expensive over time. Most of the cost is in the initial outlay. We are not the ones forgetting some important things. It's you guys who keep seeing it from a single resource perspective but I'm still waiting for an answer every time I ask when has the sun not shone or the wind not blown. You are not comparing apples to apples as the figures show them to be cheaper to provision.

I afraid you need to update your facts a little.
1. Nuclear is reliable (I don’t need to add supporting documentation from the British, Americans, Germans, Swiss, Russians and most importantly the French). Also nuclear submarines…

2. ‘Import backup power’. Is is a very much island mentality. All countries that can try to interconnect with their neighbours because sometimes you produce more than you need and your neighbour might need it, other times it’s the other way around. Which brings me to:

3. You don’t ‘overprovision’ electricity production. Production must always be equal to demand. When you turn on your lights Khusile ramps up a bit. When we all go to sleep at night power stations are ramped down. Providing more power than you need is like pressing in the clutch at 120km/h on the highway while not taking your foot off the accelerator. Your engine will and in this case the power stations will overrev and tear themselves apart.

1. We are not talking reliability. It's more expensive to maintain with longer maintenance times.
2. You're ignoring the issue. By backup power I actually mean regular additional power from neighbouring states. No country has gone just nuclear without importing power from other sources. It would dramatically increase the costs.
3. Again you don't understand. Of all sources of electricity nuclear is the least dispatchable. So you have to provision for constantly providing peak power.

 

[richjdavies]

Just putting this here

EAF doesnt matter. Its EAF vs expectations...
Solar and wind you plan for 30% EAF... but coal at 60% less than planned... Aish!

 

[Lupus]

No it gets less expensive over time. Most of the cost is in the initial outlay. We are not the ones forgetting some important things. It's you guys who keep seeing it from a single resource perspective but I'm still waiting for an answer every time I ask when has the sun not shone or the wind not blown. You are not comparing apples to apples as the figures show them to be cheaper to provision.


1. We are not talking reliability. It's more expensive to maintain with longer maintenance times.
2. You're ignoring the issue. By backup power I actually mean regular additional power from neighbouring states. No country has gone just nuclear without importing power from other sources. It would dramatically increase the costs.
3. Again you don't understand. Of all sources of electricity nuclear is the least dispatchable. So you have to provision for constantly providing peak power.

Actually it's not more expensive to maintain that's where you're wrong as well. But it seems it doesn't matter how many times this is pointed out. You keep thinking that renewables are the answer.
Also the sun does not shine for 12 hours a day or when there is cloud coverage. So in those times they need to supplement power with more expensive means.
Wind also doesn't blow all the time so it's the same thing it needs to be supplemented.
Renewables are not something to base all your eggs on, the mythical SA everyone keeps saying has cheaper electricity because of renewables is not true either, with a simple check on current tariffs they are over 70% more expensive then the North.

 

[Lupus]

EAF doesnt matter. Its EAF vs expectations...
Solar and wind you plan for 30% EAF... but coal at 60% less than planned... Aish!

So you need more land, more resources for less power?

 

[richjdavies]

So you need more land, more resources for less power?

Land shmland... SA has lots of land...
You also need more land to grow cut flowers, but who cares!?

 

[PaulMurkin]

Renewables are more like renting the house, not buying it, as it's cheap at first but it gets more expensive over time, especially as you renewable fans keep forgetting one important thing, when the resource isn't there, you still need something to provide power... Which is currently rather expensive and is why the costs of renewables isn't cheap, as the factor for gas/diesel backups are not factored into the solar prices.
I mean even the guys who have solar arrays at home have a generator just in case, as a few solid cloudy days can dramatically drop your power generation. Now put that on a wider scale and see what happens, I mean hell every place that has switched to more renewables has the highest tariffs for electricity vs their counterparts, I literally went on and showed that the price of electricity in the fabled South Australia is almost twice the price of North Australia, yet people will go oh yeah but that's not the wholesale price or whatever other excuse.
So the user is paying more then their northern brethern but it's okay cause it's not the wholesale price?

You better listen people... especially to the parts as highlighted.

 

[Swa]

Actually it's not more expensive to maintain that's where you're wrong as well. But it seems it doesn't matter how many times this is pointed out. You keep thinking that renewables are the answer.

You keep ignoring all of the additional costs including decommissioning which isn't even factored in.

Also the sun does not shine for 12 hours a day or when there is cloud coverage. So in those times they need to supplement power with more expensive means.
Wind also doesn't blow all the time so it's the same thing it needs to be supplemented.

Again thinking in isolation. But that's how it goes with you anti-renewables...

Renewables are not something to base all your eggs on, the mythical SA everyone keeps saying has cheaper electricity because of renewables is not true either, with a simple check on current tariffs they are over 70% more expensive then the North.

That's exactly what we're saying, you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Still waiting to hear when the sun hasn't shone AND the wind hasn't blown.

 

[Lupus]

You keep ignoring all of the additional costs including decommissioning which isn't even factored in.


Again thinking in isolation. But that's how it goes with you anti-renewables...


That's exactly what we're saying, you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Still waiting to hear when the sun hasn't shone AND the wind hasn't blown.

Let me go outside at this time right now, pretty sure that isn't the sun above my head.
You're also ignoring the costs of decommissioning solar and wind which has to be done in half the time of a nuclear you're also ignoring the fact costs of the supplementary power needed. What do you think that the solar panels are going to last forever? Also what happens at night when the sun doesn't shine? What happens when the wind doesn't blow enough? Like what's happened in the UK recently and even in South Australia? Magic? Is that how renewables will keep going?
Also you renewables always keep saying we can't keep putting the eggs into one basket we must mix, which also increases the costs as now you need more specialized people, equipment and so on.

 

[PaulMurkin]

So can I ask a question if I may... who here reckons we will get another round of LS just before Christmas or between Christmas and New Year?

 

[Lupus]

So can I ask a question if I may... who here reckons we will get another round of LS just before Christmas or between Christmas and New Year?

Numbers haven't been great, but they are better then last year this time and demand is generally downhill from now till after Xmas, so it might be after Xmas

 

[Janjordaan81]

Yahhhh.Bunch of idiots in a zoo.Just spent and stole millions on these power stations. Most of us knew 13 years ago that the world was gonna alter coal stations.But we are clever.We are the government ja.The same with the dams...it was for how long dry and what did the goverment do?Nothing.Absolutely nothing.I would have spend some bucks making the deeper.Now most of them are at 120%, overflowing and in a few months time,we declare disaster areas again due to water shortages.Stupid and unqualified if you ask me.Buy your qualifications next to the train station. Lets eat the carrot in front of us and worry tomorrow about tomorrow's problems. Clowns.