Ex-president PW Botha dies

[DigitalSoldier]

As I said when Mandela vreks we should remember his whole life and not just the rosy period, but without insulting his grave.

Good point.

but when Mandela and Fw dies it will truelly mark the end of an area of "old" politicians.

 

[Freshy-ZN]

RIP ou Groot Krokodil.

1)Remember he instituted the Tri-Cameral Parliament which effectively started power sharing with indians and couloureds (not blacks but an important first step)
2) He personally repealed something like 100 discriminatory pieces of legislation.
3) He abolished the group areas act and the mixed marriages act.
4) Andries Treunicht and company split to form the Conservative Party thanks to his 'liberal actions'
5) Many more plus points which I cantremember all of the details

People forget that the whole unbanning of the ANC and co, and the handover of power was all about critical timing. While black South Africans were lamenting the slow progress of the struggle, behind closed doors PW, Pik, Nelson and others were planning the eventual outcome with the top priority being that this country was not plunged into a bitter civil war.

Any sooner and it wouldnt have worked, any later: well maybe not either. They seemed to have gotten it just right if one keeps the civil war thing in mind. PW was very clever. He was just as important as FW and Nelson. The only thing they couldnt control or predict was how the Presidents after Nelson would cock it up!

 

[Darth Garth]

The African National Congress on Tuesday night extended its sympathy and condolences to the family and friends of former president PW Botha.

In a statement, the ANC wished Botha's family "strength and comfort at this difficult time".

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw116232948310B252

My word ... indeed how far we have moved ... who would have believed these words being said today during the heady days of the 80's ???.

 

[Ekhaatvensters]

Ja, I wasnt really expecting that from the ANC, but im sure the PAC would give us what we are looking for.. living back in the 80's themselves.

 

[chiskop]

RIP ou Groot Krokodil.

1)Remember he instituted the Tri-Cameral Parliament which effectively started power sharing with indians and couloureds (not blacks but an important first step)
2) He personally repealed something like 100 discriminatory pieces of legislation.
3) He abolished the group areas act and the mixed marriages act.
4) Andries Treunicht and company split to form the Conservative Party thanks to his 'liberal actions'
5) Many more plus points which I cantremember all of the details

Um, No.

It is arguablable whether the tricameral parliament was a step forward or backward - blacks weren't represented and many coloureds and indians regarded their representation as a sham.

PW most certainly did not repeal the Group Areas Act - that only happened in 1991, once he was out of power.

I'm really struggling to think of more than one or two reforms that PW made that brought us any closer to a negotiated solution. He did, of course, initiate discussions with the ANC, although no progress was made on that front until Botha was out of power. Feel free to weigh in, 'cos I just can't remember any of these "something like 100 discriminatory pieces of " you say he repealed.

Mostly though, I'm angry because he ignored the TRC. The TRC was a neccessary process to (1) call people to account for their actions, and (2) so that we could all learn what was being done in our names.

Botha never repented, never reconciled nor did he ever show any remorse. For this reason I don't think he deserves ours now.

The president has asked that all flags be flown at half mast today, this is certainly more than other of Botha's opponents could have expected during his rule.

 

[neio]

Botha didn't apologize because he was fighting against communism. And he was right to do so at that stage in history.

You can all bitch and moan about the racist policy's but at the end of the day the only reason apartheid ended was because the USSR failed.

 

[chiskop]

Communism was a cover, a neccessary bogeyman.

How did the Group Areas Act help the fight against communism?

You can all bitch and moan about the racist policy's but at the end of the day the only reason apartheid ended was because the USSR failed.

I agree that the fall of the USSR and other communist countries was important in the ending of apartheid - but I see it differently to you.

I think that the Nats saw what happened to Ceacescu and others, and saw themselves. I think they realised that you cannot oppose the will of the majority of the country for ever - and that history will catch up with you.

 

[brixton tower]

I think that the Nats saw what happened to Ceacescu and others, and saw themselves. I think they realised that you cannot oppose the will of the majority of the country for ever - and that history will catch up with you.

Yep, the fall of communism in Eastern Europe did play a role in how the Nats perrceived the ANC in 1989 (weakened) but Botha was stubborn to the end and still insisted on white minority rule for the country.

In the end the Groot Krokodil should not be celebrated but his legacy should be remembered even if it was violent and oppressive.

 

[surface]

Yep, the fall of communism in Eastern Europe did play a role in how the Nats perrceived the ANC in 1989 (weakened) but Botha was stubborn to the end and still insisted on white minority rule for the country.

In the end the Groot Krokodil should not be celebrated but his legacy should be remembered even if it was violent and oppressive.

No comparisons intended. But with few substitutions, see what happens

--
..but Bob was stubborn to the end and still insisted on his own rule for the country.

In the end the Bob Mugabe should not be celebrated but his legacy should be remembered even if it was violent and oppressive.
--

Very creepy indeed!

 

[surface]

Steve Irwin seems to be very excited,

Hy het gehoor daar is ‘n groot krokodil oppad!

 

[playkiller no.2]

Crikey! you're not the gator that I was expecting.

 

[Vrotappel]

Are you serious, was the first part of your post an attempt at sarcasm? Of course black people in South Africa would relatively be better off than their counterparts from Africa since this country had the most developed/industrialised economy on the continent.

Dunno whether you know your history but the SADF's adventure in Angola was a dismal failure which cost South Africa billions and didn't make white South Africa any safer...that's unless you believed the propaganda you were fed each night at 8pm on a certain channel. Please, the SADF or white South Africa should not take undue credit for the defeat of communism...America should.

Now bright spark why was this country the most developed/industrialised economy on the continent?

I am pretty sure I am not posting in Russian so the kommie Gevaar was stopped, wasn't it?

 

[Darth Garth]

I am pretty sure I am not posting in Russian so the kommie Gevaar was stopped, wasn't it?

Do you know how many SACP members are in position of power in the ANC govt ???.

But the SACP exist now in name only since the fall of the Soviet Union has put paid to the ideology of communism no thanks to Ronald Reagan and the cold war era arms race which bankrupted them.

The US simply could outspend them.

 

[surface]

Was he involved with the blokes who blew up Wimpeys, bars and bombs in downtown Pretoria?

I hope you are not serious in this comparison, get a reality check

Link I mentioned here is apparently a Urban Legend as per sunday times, *Removed*

 

[Alan]

Do you know how many SACP members are in position of power in the ANC govt ???.

But the SACP exist now in name only since the fall of the Soviet Union has put paid to the ideology of communism no thanks to Ronald Reagan and the cold war era arms race which bankrupted them.

The US simply could outspend them.

Very true but those people in power probably weren't true commies in the first place. They just sway with whatever suits them at the time.

Credit where it is due. Reagan ran them into the dust. What better way to win than through economics after all that was major point of contention.

 

[Jongi]

Actually the person who alluded to Robert Mugabe has a point. I want to see the same kind of understanding for him when he dies.

 

[TELESPHORE]

Can we please close this thread? If someone has a beef about the policies of the past then get it done in another thread. We gave our condolences and that is where it should rest. I was never a fan of PW but I do think and reason that he had a burden he had to shoulder in the context of the time and he accepted it and passed on over it in more than one way. Let us put it to rest else this can explode in a leader bashing. One day all of us has to answer to our creator and that is all that can be done once someone has crossed the bridge to God’s realm

 

[IamCanadian]

PW was not a well regarded man by the blacks:

Have a look at this thread on IOL. It left me cold and worried about the future of SA:
http://blogs.iol.co.za/insideiol/2006/11/01/end-of-an-era/#comments

Here is one of many quotes that are similar:

Funny how people keep on saying lets forgive, How do you actually forgive someone who does not want to be forgiven. People are talking about how PW helped develop our country,when investors left the country.

Now the blame has shifted to the ANC and the Government, I think its time we stoped blaming the Government because Government is run by people. Most of the people saying our Government is bad, Do work in the same government and are part of the Bad they are talking about.

So this Guy is Dead, so are so many people that lived under his rule. So please lets be real here, No one is above law even the president. He is dead, let him remain Dead. All white people are complaining about Blacks enriching themselves in our government, How many of you white people live in a 45 square metre house?

To everyone who said the Guy was an icon to them, Well Tough your icon is Gone, you are under a Black Government with a black president, Deal With it. We are still going to make sure that Whites dont get power since they never wanted us to be part of “their country”.

Hatred is hatred as much as a Snake is a snake. Most of the people that keep saying they are white and voted against the White regime, its because they foresaw that they were holding on to something that wasnt gonna work, hence they pretend to be non racial.

You must see on our roads how they scream at black people. How they Grab their handbags when a black guy walks past them. And they keep saying that they are not racist.

It gets me really worked up, to hear all this rubbish about whites having changed. We dont know for sure if they have changed or they just changed because it suits them or they had no other option.

Look at him “PW” he was living in Seclusion from other people. Condolences to his family, condolences to the families who lost their kids, husbands, brothers, sister, because of this Monster.

He should be burried face down.

Like I said. Not well regarded.

 

[DigitalSoldier]

You must see on our roads how they scream at black people. How they Grab their handbags when a black guy walks past them. And they keep saying that they are not racist.

Reminds me of a nofx song idiots are taking over. The above statement black people brought onto themself but still I believe its more about class. If a black guy looking poor(like a bum) etc walks up to me I will start to worry but when a black guy looking decent walks up to me I wont give a damn.

It gets me really worked up, to hear all this rubbish about whites having changed. We dont know for sure if they have changed or they just changed because it suits them or they had no other option.

Being this insecure must be a biatch

To everyone who said the Guy was an icon to them, Well Tough your icon is Gone, you are under a Black Government with a black president, Deal With it. We are still going to make sure that Whites dont get power since they never wanted us to be part of “their country”.

Is that a bit of racism I smell ? I really dont care what this guy says about Pw Botha as long as I can say the same thing about bob mugabe when he dies without being called a racist.

 

[HosstheBoss]

http://www.mg.co.za/zapiro/imageToday.aspx?YearId=2006|MonthId=11|DayId=3