Forced lockdown or mandated vaccines?

Which would you prefer if these were your only two choices?

  • Forced lockdown for everyone

    Votes: 56 24.5%
  • Forced vaccination for everyone

    Votes: 173 75.5%

  • Total voters
    229

noxibox

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
22,080
Yes, vaccine decreases the chances of hospitalisation and death, but the primary reason for the vaccine was to "stop the spread". Omicron and delta has already proved to bypass the vaccine treatment easily, and the waining effect of immunity and transmission within vaccinated people leads to a potentially severe issue of virus mutations that will be more deadly for unvaccinated populations including those who cannot be vaccinated.
That was going to happen regardless. If a virus spreads through a population it is essentially the same as everyone getting vaccinated. If it is the sort of virus like smallpox that takes hundreds of years or more to mutate, then the virus dies out in the wild if everyone who is still alive has immunity. If it is a variety that can mutate faster, but has only a limited number of effective options, like polio, then it can still be wiped out. If it mutates quite fast and has multiple effective options, then it can keep surviving. Coronaviruses would generally fall into this category. Some, like SARS-CoV, wipe themselves out by being too deadly.

The gist of it is that this particular coronavirus was going to infect and mutate with or without vaccines. There is no reason to assume that the result would increased deadliness.

This was warned against by multiple health professionals but their voices were shut out, ridiculed and banned. In 2008 a study on the viability of a vaccine against the MERS Corona virus found that the vaccine would only be effective for 6months, this study was ignored by almost everyone.
Depends on what you mean by effective. But ultimately the MERS vaccines were never approved because there simply were not enough cases for proper testing and release.

Previous studies on the effects of vaccines against Corona viruses in humanised mice have shown it leads to pathogenic immune priming, resulting in the body no longer developing response to variants.
Pathogenic priming can happen from both infection and vaccines.

I think that this issue only serves to highlight the selfishness of humans. Vaccinated people believed that if they took the shot everything would go back to normal there would be forced 'herd immunity'. Now they are blaming unvaccinated people for that not happening
You can't have herd immunity unless most people are vaccinated. So if herd immunity were possible then it would be the fault of those who choose not get vaccinated that there is no herd immunity. In this case though herd immunity is probably impossible anyway.
 

Hush9300

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
2,153
It's a tough one.

We both have rights that shouldn't be infringed on. The antivaxxers choices also affect life.

Does one have more rights than the other?

In what way? I'm not restricting your movement... I'm not interfering with your right to bodily integrity...

You want me to take a medicine to free up a hospital bed for someone.

a) By voluntarily refusing to take the jab, you're the ones clogging the hospital beds. Around the world, people are being turned away and operations delayed because the unvaccinated are taking space

So what happens when the inevitable happens such as in Israel when due to high vaccination rates the beds are taken up by vaccinated individuals? Do you then start blaming those whom haven't had a booster?

b) You're still expecting full medical care and someone else needs to pay for your choice, which ultimately ends up being me

We all pay our tax and medical aids. What is this?

c) I believe we'll have less of lockdown when we're vaccinated too. Lockdowns aren't great and businesses close down / people become unemployed etc

See highly vaccinated countries lockdown the world over.

If you want to make a point of not taking a vaccine, then you should be placed at the back of the list for assistance. And pay for it. I'm not keen on my medical aid rising higher than normal because of you

So selfish reasons...

I guess Theatre doctors and nurses should all then just stop wearing masks during surgery, they don't work

Surgeons wear masks to protect themselves from droplets and spray as well as to prevent contamination of the surgical field. They do NOT wear masks to prevent viral spread.

Ok.

So to be clear, you don't believe that 90% of unvaccinated are filling up the hospitals ?
And you do feel the spike we have now is broken legs - and that's the real concern here ?
We're on our 4th wave of broken legs and they're true bed hogs ?

Sounds legit

90% of how much...

This isn't difficult man. The hospitals have sections for covid positive patients. Whether there is one person or 5 or 50 - the whole section is reserved.

So if the whole section is taken up by vaccinated individuals it would be ok?

Now I'm torn - do I believe @Hush9300 about the hospital beds ?
Or pretty much *everyone* else ?

While beds are likely to become a necessity due to the Omicron variant, the CEO of the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital said that she was concerned about capacity

A doctor at Johannesburg’s Chris Hani Baragwanath Academic Hospital spoke of a steady increase in recent days and 70 adult patients admitted for illness related to Covid-19.

Chris Hani Baragwanath hospital needs at least 400 more beds than it did in the third wave, said the doctor who spoke anonymously.

According to the doctor, only 15 of the 70 patients had been vaccinated. About 12 of them required oxygen and two were on ventilators.

As of 1 December, there were more than 8 561 new Covid-19 cases nationally and 6 164 (72%) of these were in Gauteng. At least 2 550 people had been admitted to both private and public hospitals.

In this past week, the seven-day average for cases has increased by 20% a day.

Tembisa Hospital has also seen an increase in Covid-19 patients. On 2  November, the hospital announced it had released the last two of its Covid-19 patients. A month later, the number stands at 25.

There were 274 new hospital admissions in the last 24-hour reporting cycle. As of Thursday, 2 904 people were in hospital for Covid-19.

I don't care who you believe.


Enlarge the report. Click on Gauteng and see how many people are in high care with Covid. I don't care what percentage of them are vaccinated or not. That's sensationalist reporting.
 

Dolby

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
29,446
blah blah blah
ElasticDecimalBabirusa-size_restricted.gif
 

Hush9300

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
2,153
The UK provides a good example because they essentially abandoned most interventions and they have all the data openly published. I wouldn't say it is 90% are unvaccinated and it varies widely across age groups, but without exception the unvaccinated are overrepresented in hospitals. There is simply no question that the various vaccines do a good job at protecting the recipient against severe illness, hospitalisation and death.
The difference is not great and it sheds a really bad light on these vaccines... The same thing played out in Israel before mass boosters were given.

Here is the data.

NJu9Bvt.png


Total hospitalisations = 8338

Hospitalisations unpenetrated = 2832 (34%)

Hospitalisations fully penetrated = 5124 (61%)

Vaccination covergae = 69%

What now?

Edit: included fully...
 

The_MAC

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
7,205
Surgeons wear masks to protect themselves from droplets and spray as well as to prevent contamination of the surgical field. They do NOT wear masks to prevent viral spread.
"Doctors, dentists, and nurses often wear them while treating patients. These masks prevent large droplets of bodily fluids that may contain viruses or other germs from escaping via the nose and mouth"

https://www.healthline.com
 

Zukat

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
1,341
This is the anti-vaxxer's favourite argument and it is getting to be a bit tedious.

Since we do not yet know what the case is with the new variant, we will talk in terms of the previous variants. Vaccination reduces your chance to be infected by between 70 and 90 percent. It also reduces your chance to spread the disease should you be infected by two thirds. This has been proven in several studies,

Let me try to explain this to you in terms that you may understand. If you have a burst water pipe in your house and you repair it with duct tape you will still have leakage but it will not be catastrophic. It will give you a chance to make another plan. Now this is exactly what vaccination does. Get it?

All those arguments imply to me, my body, and other unvaxxed individuals, which we can deal between ourselves and have only ourselves to blame for 1/100 unvaxxed going under. My question remains- why should you care about that with all your boosters, apart from having 1% less unvaxxed stupid people around you?
 

Stonemason

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
718
All those arguments imply to me, my body, and other unvaxxed individuals, which we can deal between ourselves and have only ourselves to blame for 1/100 unvaxxed going under. My question remains- why should you care about that with all your boosters, apart from having 1% less unvaxxed stupid people around you?
Because the anti-vaxxers are more susceptible to infection and in the process they are the perfect breeding ground for new variants. That makes them a danger to me whether I am vaxxed or not. So, stop arguing and hurry to your closest vaccination site. Its free and I promise you it will not hurt.
 

Hush9300

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
2,153
"Doctors, dentists, and nurses often wear them while treating patients. These masks prevent large droplets of bodily fluids that may contain viruses or other germs from escaping via the nose and mouth"

https://www.healthline.com

Wear your mask then. You don't want to be told why surgeons wear them and now you're coming with a quote regarding large droplets as if we don't this already. The problem is Covid's main method of transmission is not via droplets but aerosols.
 

Hush9300

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
2,153
Because the anti-vaxxers are more susceptible to infection and in the process they are the perfect breeding ground for new variants. That makes them a danger to me whether I am vaxxed or not. So, stop arguing and hurry to your closest vaccination site. Its free and I promise you it will not hurt.
Are we still on about the unvaccinated harbouring deadly variants?
 

daveza

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
46,284
Wear your mask then. You don't want to be told why surgeons wear them and now you're coming with a quote regarding large droplets as if we don't this already. The problem is Covid's main method of transmission is not via droplets but aerosols.

Droplets can travel 6 feet , thus the need for social distancing.
 

Zukat

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
1,341
Because the anti-vaxxers are more susceptible to infection and in the process they are the perfect breeding ground for new variants. That makes them a danger to me whether I am vaxxed or not. So, stop arguing and hurry to your closest vaccination site. Its free and I promise you it will not hurt.

Maybe not physically, but it will hurt emotionally knowing that I went for something that we don't know the long term effect of, injected into my body to decrease my chance of death from 1% to 0,5%... That will hurt, promise you.
 

Moosedrool

Executive Member
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
9,340
Vaccination reduces your chance to be infected by between 70 and 90 percent.

Citation needed.

Be careful since Covid-19 is a disease. In order to reduce viral evolution IE favourable mutations due to a multiplying virus you need to inhibit the virus from infecting as many individuals or have it killed by the body's immune system before rapid duplication. The antigen you're trying to stop is SARS-CoV-2.

A lot of articles read that it reduces your chance of getting Covid-19 which doesn't mean you're not spreading coronavirus.
 
Last edited:

axsis

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
598
Because the anti-vaxxers are more susceptible to infection and in the process they are the perfect breeding ground for new variants. That makes them a danger to me whether I am vaxxed or not. So, stop arguing and hurry to your closest vaccination site. Its free and I promise you it will not hurt.

I'd like a citation from a paper that this is the case.

Also you do realise that the vaccines also apply mutation pressure? (Just as they do with Influenza).
 

The_MAC

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
7,205
Wear your mask then. You don't want to be told why surgeons wear them and now you're coming with a quote regarding large droplets as if we don't this already. The problem is Covid's main method of transmission is not via droplets but aerosols.
So do they work or not?
 

alanB

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
606
Because the anti-vaxxers are more susceptible to infection and in the process they are the perfect breeding ground for new variants. That makes them a danger to me whether I am vaxxed or not. So, stop arguing and hurry to your closest vaccination site. Its free and I promise you it will not hurt.
My understanding is that your assumption is 100% wrong.

The break-through infections are occurring because the virus is mutating in the VACCINATED people, which makes more sense, how would a break through version that can defeat the vaccine evolve in unvaccinated people? And thus the new mutations become resistant to vaccine version 1.0 and now we need vaccine version 2.0 - isn't that convenient for the Pfizer shareholders?

Evolution tells us that organisms evolve to adapt to their environment. When the environment changes, especially when it becomes more difficult to survive, the rate of mutation's increase.

This entire media campaign is just fear mongering, trying to stampede the population into doing what it is told. Please stop just believing what progressive journalists tell you, stop letting them do your thinking for you. Start thinking for yourself!

How does an unvaccinated person represent ANY threat to you if you are vaccinated - the only way that logic works if you concede your vaccine doesn't work - so does it work or doesn't it?

If the ONLY solution is forcing everyone in the country to be vaccinated why did that not work in Gibraltar and Israel etc - or does that not matter, because the media is telling you how to think and thus you don't have to worry your empty head about that? They will publish some narrative soon which will brush that inconvenient fact away?


EDIT: Oh and one other point - the vaccine is not free, tax payers are paying ENORMOUS amounts to the drug companies - one of the biggest financial scams in history IMO. Which is why there is such enormous pressure to maximise the number of people forced to consume the products, in version 1,2,3,4,....
 
Last edited:

noxibox

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
22,080
You forgot the most obvious option

C - Forced testing for everyone.

Why lockdown everyone, infected and healthy. Why force vaccinations when it doesn't stop infection or transmission, only reduce severity of illness, Why force vaccinations when someone has natural immunity and anti-bodies from previous infection.

Regular mandatory testing makes more sense for travel, for employment, to access large public events. The persons who test positive should be required to be in lockdown aka self isolate, while the rest of the healthy people can continue with their lives unrestricted.
Would that be a rapid antibody test? There is no way I’m submitting to regular invasive PCR tests.
 

noxibox

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
22,080
When the environment changes, especially when it becomes more difficult to survive, the rate of mutation's increase.
That is complete nonsense. The rate of mutation remains exactly the same.
 

LCBXX

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
16,980
I’m not sure what is required but the logic is that lower transmissibility inhibits viral evolution. Which is sound. Measles was nearly extinct before Andrew Wakefield wrote his nonsense paper based on false research.
Are you equating the Covid vaccine to the MMR vaccine, the latter which imparts actual immunity?
 
Top