Forced lockdown or mandated vaccines?

Which would you prefer if these were your only two choices?

  • Forced lockdown for everyone

    Votes: 56 24.5%
  • Forced vaccination for everyone

    Votes: 173 75.5%

  • Total voters
    229

alanB

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
606
That is complete nonsense. The rate of mutation remains exactly the same.
Nope think you are wrong, but in any event it doesn't change my overall point.

The basis of my statement was an article about mutation rates in fruit flies, which I read a long time ago. Because fruit flies have such short lives, it's possible to induce and track mutations by stressing their environment. The article stated that as their environment got stressed, the rate of mutations increased dramatically.

You can argue otherwise. But it doesn't change my overall point, so it's a side issue really.
 

LCBXX

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
16,044
...it can't be explained any simpler than that - but get ready for reasons :
  • The studies are BS fear mongering !
  • The studies are manipulated and faked by WHO!
  • Give me the names / ID numbers of EACH person - or it's BS !
  • The media houses are paid off by drugs manufacturers !
  • The doctors are lying as they're also paid off!
  • Government is in on the scam !
  • The vaccine is NOT effective, but it helps you not get as sick - so it's BS !
The question you need to ask is: what does it mean if some of the above were true?

As an example: Until evidence came to light that the virus leaked from a lab, where gain-of-function research were performed on the virus, with funding from the NIH, that studies which shown that asymptomatic transmission were funded by the Chinese government, it were all dismissed as wild conspiracy theories.
 

alanB

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
606
BTW I want to be clear. I'm not arguing against vaccination.

BUT I am arguing very hard against this media induced tyranny and persecution against unvaccinated people - it's FAR more dangerous than the bloody virus. Just read some history.
 

noxibox

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Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
21,471
Even if you could somehow overcome the logistical problems of regularly testing millions of people mass testing will still fail, because you’ll be swamped by false positives and have enough false negatives to keep the spread going. You’ll be isolating people who don’t need to isolate while allowing carriers to walk around.
 

LCBXX

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Apr 11, 2006
Messages
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Even if you could somehow overcome the logistical problems of regularly testing millions of people mass testing will still fail, because you’ll be swamped by false positives and have enough false negatives to keep the spread going. You’ll be isolating people who don’t need to isolate while allowing carriers to walk around.
You're assuming this is done for the benefit of population health and not profit. For the latter, who cares what the numbers are, as long as they go up and can be leveraged to coerce vaccination.
 

noxibox

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Apr 6, 2005
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21,471
The sanitising on entering shops is a complete waste of time. If anything is hygiene theatre it is that.
 

Forum Reader

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
989
The question you need to ask is: what does it mean if some of the above were true?

As an example: Until evidence came to light that the virus leaked from a lab, where gain-of-function research were performed on the virus, with funding from the NIH, that studies which shown that asymptomatic transmission were funded by the Chinese government, it were all dismissed as wild conspiracy theories.

Is that confirmed? Seems like it's still a conspiracy.

The idea that the virus was released from a laboratory, either accidentally or deliberately, appeared early in the pandemic. It gained popularity through its promotion by political figures such as US president Donald Trump and other members of the Republican Party, as well as its dissemination in American conservative media, fomenting tensions between the United States and China. It was subsequently widely dismissed as a conspiracy theory.[2][11]

The idea of an accidental lab leak regained scientific and media attention in 2021.[1] In March, the World Health Organization (WHO) published a report into the origins of the virus which found the possibility to be "extremely unlikely", although Tedros Adhanom, Director-General of the WHO, said that its conclusions were not definitive and data had been withheld from investigators.[12] In June 2021, the WHO announced plans for a second phase of investigation that would include audits of laboratories and research institutions, which China rejected.[4][13]

In August 2021, the US intelligence community released a two-page declassified summary of its probe into the origins of SARS-CoV-2. The probe assessed that the Chinese government did not have foreknowledge of the outbreak.[14] Overall, it determined that both "natural exposure to an infected animal" and a "laboratory-associated incident" were plausible causes, but did not conclusively favor one scenario over the other. Of the eight assembled teams, one leaned towards a lab leak explanation (with moderate confidence), four others (and the National Intelligence Council) leaned towards animal origins (with low confidence), and three were unable to reach a conclusion.[15][16][17][18]

Most scientists have remained skeptical of the idea, citing a lack of supporting evidence and believing that a natural origin is much more likely.


 

Pixual

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
2,401
So many feeble minded, virus fearing, societal fracturing people not only on here, but in the world at large. Let me paint an endgame picture for you all, because it seems that with your limited intellect these things appear to be beyond your grasp:

1. if you marginalise a huge wad of society by telling them that unless they comply with your (viewed by them as) irrational attempt to "fix" the covid problem, you will turn those people into extremists. When you are painted into a corner and have nowhere left to go then you will have a person with nothing left to lose. If you have nothing left to lose then doing extreme things to teach those who are oppressing you a lesson becomes a very easy mindset to slip into. If you think the July unrest was bad, wait until you begin to tell millions of South Africans who are already on a short fuse that they can't go to the shebeen or the KFC.

Is this what you really want? Do you want to see government officials being assassinated? Do you want to see buildings and soft targets being blown up? Do you want a crime wave so large that you will not escape it yourself? Of course you don't. Then it's simple, don't bring illogical and irrational measures into a fight that everybody actually wants to win.

2. If you think that it is OK to "bend" the constitution at the behest of governments who's own rationale appears to have become unhinged since covid began, do not expect that constitution to ever protect you again.

Listen to the concerns of the people who have thought this through already. Do not throw away freedom of choice because you are afraid.
 
Last edited:

Forum Reader

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
989
So many feeble minded, virus fearing, societal fracturing people not only on here, but in the world at large. Let me paint an endgame picture for you all, because it seems that with your limited intellect these things appear to be beyond your grasp:

1. if you marginalise a huge wad of society by telling them that unless they comply with your (viewed by them as) irrational attempt to "fix" the covid problem, you will turn those people into extremists. When you are painted into a corner and have nowhere left to go then you will have a person with nothing left to lose. If you have nothing left to lose then doing extreme things to teach those who are oppressing you a lesson becomes a very easy mindset to slip into. If you think the July unrest was bad, wait until you begin to tell millions of South Africans who are already on a short fuse that they can't go to the shebeen or the KFC.

Is this what you really want? Do you want to see government officials being assassinated? Do you want to see buildings and soft targets being blown up? Do you want a crime wave so large that you will not escape it yourself? Of course you don't. Then it's simple, don't bring illogical and irrational measures into a fight that everybody actually wants to win.

2. If you think that it is OK to "bend" the constitution at the behest of governments who's own rationale appears to have become unhinged since covid began, do not expect that constitution to ever protect you again.

Listen to the concerns of the people who have thought this through already. Do not throw away freedom because you are afraid.

Seems like you are afraid of people being irrational and causing terror. Better to try and fix the irrationality than throw in the towel because you're afraid people will lose it. Otherwise we will never get anywhere.
 

LCBXX

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
16,044
So many feeble minded, virus fearing, societal fracturing people not only on here, but in the world at large. Let me paint an endgame picture for you all, because it seems that with your limited intellect these things appear to be beyond your grasp:

1. if you marginalise a huge wad of society by telling them that unless they comply with your (viewed by them as) irrational attempt to "fix" the covid problem, you will turn those people into extremists. When you are painted into a corner and have nowhere left to go then you will have a person with nothing left to lose. If you have nothing left to lose then doing extreme things to teach those who are oppressing you a lesson becomes a very easy mindset to slip into. If you think the July unrest was bad, wait until you begin to tell millions of South Africans who are already on a short fuse that they can't go to the shebeen or the KFC.

Is this what you really want? Do you want to see government officials being assassinated? Do you want to see buildings and soft targets being blown up? Do you want a crime wave so large that you will not escape it yourself? Of course you don't. Then it's simple, don't bring illogical and irrational measures into a fight that everybody actually wants to win.

2. If you think that it is OK to "bend" the constitution at the behest of governments who's own rationale appears to have become unhinged since covid began, do not expect that constitution to ever protect you again.

Listen to the concerns of the people who have thought this through already. Do not throw away freedom because you are afraid.
Nothing will work in the fight against Covid unless everybody does what they are told, together, without resistance.

Sounds like communism to me, but
But-Thats-None-Of-My-Business-Neutral.jpg
 

Pixual

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
2,401
Seems like you are afraid of people being irrational and causing terror. Better to try and fix the irrationality than throw in the towel because you're afraid people will lose it. Otherwise we will never get anywhere.
I am not afraid. I am just telling you what is going to happen if the world continues to follow such stupidity.

Are you aware of what is going on right now on the N3 at Van Reenen? It may be unrelated, but this is how easy it will be to bring this country to its knees if it follows other countries with idiotic policies of locking down innocent people with imbecilic ideas.

Wake up.
 

Turtle

Expert Member
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
1,861
Fallacy of false choice. There is so much wrong with the over-simplistic analysis and false choice presented it's difficult to even know where to begin.

Both these courses of action are unethical, mass human rights violations. Government are not being forced to engage in mass human rights violations. Lockdowns destroy peoples livelihoods and dreams.
 

Pixual

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
2,401
So all the Medical Experts are wrong, and you are right?
You may have missed it but not all medical experts are in agreement on covid, its treatment and the way people, especially media and government have been reacting to it.

In fact, there is more disagreement in medical circles than has even been the case in history. You're just blind to it.
 

thehuman

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Messages
3,820
Will choose vaccine above lockdown

Seems need 90+ % vaccination rate to make a difference tho.
 

LCBXX

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
16,044
So all the Medical Experts are wrong, and you are right?
Will choose vaccine above lockdown

Seems need 90+ % vaccination rate to make a difference tho.
Could said "medical experts" explain why Covid cases are higher now in counties with comprehensive vaccination compliance than when the same counties had no/low vaccination compliance?
 

noxibox

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
21,471
Nope think you are wrong, but in any event it doesn't change my overall point.
It is a common claim used to argue against vaccination for this virus, so it does matter.

The basis of my statement was an article about mutation rates in fruit flies, which I read a long time ago. Because fruit flies have such short lives, it's possible to induce and track mutations by stressing their environment. The article stated that as their environment got stressed, the rate of mutations increased dramatically.
It wasn't a changed mutation rate, but rather a reduced error correction rate. But that is in a multicellular organism under stress instead of simply being killed outright. Each virion that gets attacked by the immune system, even if a virus could experience stress, gets destroyed. They also have no awareness that I know of so they can't really get panicked about their brethren being killed right in front of them. And arguably the virus is always under stress whether it is encountering an attacking naïve immune system or one that has encountered the virus before.

The reduced error correction that occurs in the fruit fly under stress also doesn't occur as a means of improving survival. It is simply a case of an organism having limited energy available and stress consuming some of that energy, leaving less for expensive things like checking and fixing DNA. If anything it causes more offspring to be born defective.

Variants of this virus that could partially evade the immune system of a vaccinated person indeed did originate in unvaccinated populations. They can originate anywhere.
 
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