Free Speech vs Hate Speech

Splinter

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While I haven't wasted my time reading saturnz posts about usury, and how he apparently somehow instantly conflates usury with any interest charged in a capitalist banking system, you need to understand how his little scheme works.

Islam does not allow interest. Western countries do. All interest is usury. Usury is bad.

Therefore, Islam greater/better than the West.
I legit did not know this. Thanks for the heads up. That's very interesting....
Also note how saturnz chopped my post in half.
Read the bold above. He did not quote this when he stated my post was "simply false".
 

Splinter

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care to expand on how I conflate usury with any interest charged?
Don't you think that you, claiming things about the entire capitalist system, is rather more important than my remembering what you've claimed?
 

saturnz

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While I haven't wasted my time reading saturnz posts about usury
Don't you think that you, claiming things about the entire capitalist system, is rather more important than my remembering what you've claimed?
Care to explain how I'm wrong?
if you ignore what I have to say, and don't remember what I have to say, then don't expect me to explain anything of substance to you
 

Bobbin

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what ideology is that?
I'm still rather curious what your thoughts are on private property and/or privacy? Perhaps framed in the context of individualism and/or personal sovereignty. In my mind these ideas lend themselves to the free-market which I have the impression you seem to be in favor of?

And how are these distinct from capitalism, if they are distinct in your view?
 
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saturnz

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I'm still rather curious what your thoughts are on private property and/or privacy? Perhaps framed in the context of individualism and/or personal sovereignty. In my mind these ideas lends themselves to the free-market which I have the impression you seem to be in favor of?

And how are these distinct from capitalism, if they are distinct in your view?
I think I have demonstrated to a certain extent how capitalism and the principle of freedom of speech within the ideology of democracy do not work together.

I don't see the point of speaking about private property for the sake of it, but I will quote this from investopedia

capitalism is focused on the creation of wealth and ownership of capital and factors of production, whereas a free market system is focused on the exchange of wealth, or goods and services.
free markets and capitalism are not the same, they focus on different things, as the citation shows and if you have free markets in a capitalist environment, then given the focus of capitalism to own things, that market will eventually be privately owned
 

Prawnapple

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Relevant to this thread. Christians are losing their minds about a series. They are calling it "hate speech" just because it offends them.
758878
 

Bobbin

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I don't see the point of speaking about private property for the sake of it, but I will quote this from investopedia
hmmm... while you don't see the point of it, to me it is crucial to this entire thread/discussion.

The notion of personal sovereignty or individualism, whether you believe that it is divine (everyone has a unique soul), or just endowed by nature or a requirement of peaceful social interaction, is particularly relevant to how we handle free speech in my view.

And if you don't believe in private ownership then you cannot, surely, espouse freedom in any form or fashion. Because without private ownership, be it property or the contents of my mind/opinion, don't belong to me any longer as per social/moral consensus.

Without all the "drivel" above, as you'd probably call it, it's actually pretty simple... In summary you either believe in personal sovereignty or you don't (Or some degree of it). With you I honestly don't know what your position is.
 

Bobbin

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A song that may be somewhat relevant to this discussion is Tom Sawyer by Rush. Go have a read on the lyrical content/meaning for those of you so inclined :)
 

saturnz

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The notion of personal sovereignty or individualism, whether you believe that it is divine (everyone has a unique soul), or just endowed by nature or a requirement of peaceful social interaction, is particularly relevant to how we handle free speech in my view.
a citation as opposed to what you think would be helpful

And if you don't believe in private ownership then you cannot, surely, espouse freedom in any form or fashion. Because without private ownership, be it property or the contents of my mind/opinion, don't belong to me any longer as per social/moral consensus.
this is not the point, the point is that if perceived public platforms are privately owned, you cannot use that platform with the expectation that your freedom of speech is protected on that platform.


Without all the "drivel" above, as you'd probably call it, it's actually pretty simple... In summary you either believe in personal sovereignty or you don't (Or some degree of it). With you I honestly don't know what your position is.
you've missed the point completely and by way of example I will repeat my previous point. Can you exercise your personal sovereignty in someone else's space? do you go to someone's house, insult them as you please and then tell them you are simply exercising your freedom to expression?
 

Prawnapple

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Tell them if they don't like it they shouldn't watch it. Easy really.

This idiot is just giving it unnecessary marketing. Where it could have gone mostly unnoticed.
My thoughts exactly! Just a quick google and you'll notice the massive amounts of people freaking out. There's a 2-million strong petition as well.
 

Prawnapple

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A song that may be somewhat relevant to this discussion is Tom Sawyer by Rush. Go have a read on the lyrical content/meaning for those of you so inclined :)
Thanks for introducing me to a new, awesome band. I've heard of Rush before, but never really gave them a listen!
 

Bobbin

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a citation as opposed to what you think would be helpful
Unfortunately I don't know what to cite from. It's simply my understanding.

this is not the point, the point is that if perceived public platforms are privately owned, you cannot use that platform with the expectation that your freedom of speech is protected on that platform.
Actually I think I can. I could say, in my opinion the moderator of this forum is an ass - and the best he/she can do is warn or ban me. But he/she cannot exercise any aggression (Unless I am aggressive then he/she has a defense case) and he/she cannot take me to court and expect to get anything from it as he/she would have a problem arguing how my opinion is theirs to own and expect compensation from.

No offense to the mod, whoever you are :p

you've missed the point completely and by of example I will repeat my previous point. Can you exercise your personal sovereignty in someone else's space? do you go to someone's house, insult them as you please and then tell them you are simply exercising your freedom to expression?
I suppose I could. The same above would apply.
 

Bobbin

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Thanks for introducing me to a new, awesome band. I've heard of Rush before, but never really gave them a listen!
The holy trinity of Rush :) Hard to imagine just a 3-man band produced that much sound, check out their Rush in Rio live performance. There's also a documentary on Netflix about them which I enjoyed.

"The biggest cult band in the world" - or something to that effect.
 

saturnz

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Unfortunately I don't know what to cite from. It's simply my understanding.
yeah thats a problem

Actually I think I can. I could say, in my opinion the moderator of this forum is an ass - and the best he/she can do is warn or ban me.
sure but then you are banned, and you can't complain on the platform you are banned, in the same way the person who you are insulting in their house can tell you you are no longer welcome in that house.

this is the point of this thread
 

Bobbin

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yeah thats a problem
Haha, me being capable of independent thought is a problem? Maybe for you :p

sure but then you are banned, and you can't complain on the platform you are banned, in the same way the person who you are insulting in their house can tell you you are no longer welcome in that house.

this is the point of this thread
I don't see this as an immediate problem. It's compatible with my views. One cannot respect private property laws or acknowledge other peoples independence without, well, respecting and acknowledging them.

But I feel like your concern might be at the extent of countries/governments exercising power over many, or the extent of some dystopian corporate rulership. Or simply in the case of ownership over limited/rare land/resources where the one who has first dibs gets to make the rules. All these don't exactly spell freedom for the needs of others I would agree. Not for property or speech.

In that case I can see the concern. Is this where you're coming from maybe?
If so, any ideas on a solution?

In my view it just comes down to removing abuse, which is again an individualistic notion. I wouldn't do so if I did not acknowledge the independence of others.
 

saturnz

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Haha, me being capable of independent thought is a problem? Maybe for you :p
I don't think you know how this works, yours as well as my subjective views are irrelevant unless they can be backed up with credible sources


I don't see this as an immediate problem. It's compatible with my views. One cannot respect private property laws or acknowledge other peoples independence without, well, respecting and acknowledging them.
then we can move on with our lives, the OP seems to think it is a problem
 

Bobbin

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I don't think you know how this works, your as well as my subjective views are irrelevant unless they can be backed up with credible sources
If I'm referencing my own independent thought when generating ideas, then no citation is required - as the source comes from me myself and I.

If you don't acknowledge that I am capable of independent thought, well then we have a major problem ;) As that implies you think I am a lesser creature than you.
 
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