Fuel for the fire... bandwidth and cost issues

podo

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Apr 16, 2004
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For all of you negative types out there, I thought I should mention the new service offered in the States by OSDN/Slashdot Broadband in partnership with Speak Easy...

They offer 6.0MBps downstream and 768kbps upstream service, at $69.99 for the first three months (don't know what it costs thereafter.)

The service isn't capped either.

So there, for those of you who so love being negative about Telkom's ADSL offerings, here's a discrepancy to *REALLY* be negative about.

Telkom ADSL, reidencial line rental plus standard ISP fee, 512kbps downstream, 256kbps upstream, 3GB cap:

Approx. $140 per month

Speak Easy ADSL, 6.0MBps downstream, 768kbps upstream, line rental and ISP charges:

$69.99 for the first three months.

Now, open the flood gates of unhappiness once more and lament how much better things are everywhere else.

Just remember, over there the real effective rate will probably be close to $200 per month, that's because in the States, you get taxed for everything, having a room for a computer to stand in, having a computer, having a phone line, having ADSL over a phone line, having an ADSL modem, having a chair in front of the computer, having a wireless hotspot in your house, having more than one computer... get the point?[:D]

Willie Viljoen
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antowan

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Good day Podo

You seem very antagonizing toward the cause on this forum. It is almost as if you do not realize that some of us on this forum have indeed been overseas and some of us actually lived there for a while. I think it might be a tad unfair to think us ignorant as to what is happening in the rest of the world. We know what is happening and what some countries have in terms of broadband offerings. On the other hand, though, I get the sense that you are a rather aware person yourself; therefore, I value your decision to take part in the discussions here. I have posted on another topic of yours. I will be checking whether or not you posted a reply just now, but for the moment let me welcome you to the place where open debate and alternative views are welcomed, if for no other reason than to test the theories and ideas of those hoping for better and more fairly priced communication technology in South Africa. The excuse often pops up that because it is the third world we must accept high prices. I believe the opposite. We need more affordable prices exactly because we are in the third world trying to advance…

Cheers
Antowan


He who does not understand the value of war at the right time, cannot comprehend the value of life at any time - Anonymous
 

microfast

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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by podo</i>
..., <b>I thought</b>... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No, you didn't [:D], besides one of the objectives of myadsl is to provide a forum where valuable information can be obtained and opinions expressed for the benefit of all.

Who knows maybe one day you might also benefit from this forum.
 

mbs

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Whoa guys - hold on there! I may be mistaken, but I think PODO's original posting was an ironic one (/read: dripping with sarcasm). The mere fact that an 'apples vs pears' comparison was posted confirms this? PODO please respond - you're surely not saying that we should be positive about Telkrap's offerings?!
 

podo

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Apr 16, 2004
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288
Of course not [:D]

While I think we should be grateful for the advances that have been made, I agree that when compared to what people have overseas we are still lagging very far behind.

The point I was actually trying to highlight was the general sence of negativity I always perceive when I browse the forum. While I do not think Telkom are offering a competitive service at a fair price, I also believe we should stop spraying negative comments and instead, try to find a constructive way to improve the situation.

I must admit that thus far I myself have been eluded by any idea as to how one could improve the situation, but I feel that if people stopped being so negative, we might be able to start collectively thinking up real ideas to improve our circumstances.

Simply posting endless rants about how bad Telkom are, even though they are accurate, accomplishes very little. I would encourage the users to stop spewing dreg on all the readers and start thinking of constructive ways to get what we want, instead of just complaining about what we have all the time.

One idea that does come to mind as a usage strike. This was employed recently with great success in Nigeria. Starting at noon, all MTN Nigeria cellular subscribers switched off their phones and stopped using the service. At 3PM on the next day, MTN gave in and agreed to a 60% price reduction. If that can be done in a country that really is in the third world, we could most certainly do it here.

The only problem is, getting the average South African Joe to leave his telephone alone for one day, will be, well, challenging [;)]

Willie Viljoen
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grubman

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Jul 26, 2003
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I don't think a usage strike would work as most of telkoms business is from businesses and not home users - we can't expect businesses to be unavailable. Now a payment strike might have more of an impact and cause certain management to sit up and take notice. Can you imagine if half the country ( home and business ) decide not to pay for a month or even delay payment by a couple of days.
 

podo

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Apr 16, 2004
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288
Knowing Telkom, they would probably respond to a payment strike by cutting off the phone service of half the country and then having the audacity to expect all of us to pay the entire installation fee again for the privilege of being reconnected.[:(!]

I do think that a well co-ordinated usage strike would work. If everyone was aware of it, they are bound to have a certain understanding for businesses which choose to participate.

Business have a lot to gain from a successful strike. I remind you that those that need routable IPs and guaranteed service still have to pay Telkom incredible amounts of money for it.

For a Diginet line that can handle 512kbps of throughput (the maximum on ADSL), with a high contention ratio, you will probably pay close to R50 000 per month today. Many businesses need these services, in fact, ISPs can't do without them.

If we could force Telkom to start pricing more competitively, everyone would gain. More businesses would be able to have fast, reliable internet service, and many smaller businesses would be able to enter the ISP market without having to become a reseller.

Worst though, being Telkom, we would probably have to keep the strike up for at least one month in order to make the management notice the difference on the monthley earnings report. A sudden drop from "massive" to "zilch" for the month would shake them up, but the chances of that are slim...

Willie Viljoen
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Tharaxis

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Aug 9, 2003
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The sad fact in the case of South Africa when comparing to the US (other than the obvious Telkom problem), is that the US had a headstart to "stuff" up when it came to the Internet bubble. The US fell into the trap of believing that the bubble would never stop growing and so telecoms companies there invested MILLIONS into connectivity between the two primary internet site producers (the US and the UK).

Unfortunately, the bubble burst and most of these providers have long since gone under. However, the bandwidth has been left behind, and is in such abundance in the US that it can be made extremely affordable.

This will likely never happen again (or, if it does, not in a LONG time), as it wasn't financially viable for those providers (they were betting on a "sure thing", and failed), and it certainly isn't financially viable anymore. Which is why there's very little NEW infrastructure rollout taking place in the US, and instead consists of the buying up of the existing infrastructure which isn't being used by anyone - this is why it is so affordable.

That said, Korea should be the example that we follow. Even though in essence broadband is a government owned commodity, their extreme focus on service rollout has resulted in what can only be described as astronomical bandwidth availability and affordability. We need for the government to stop viewing the internet and broadband as something only the financially well-off can afford and should be dedicated to providing affordable and fast internet access to all. We all have a RIGHT to information, and it's about time government took it seriously.
 

podo

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288
Tharaxis,

While you touched on a big problem there, I don't think it's merely infrastructure holding us back.

It's very well known that Telkom are one of the largest consortium partners to Afrolinque, which operates the SAT3/WASC/SAFE submarine and terrestrial cable system.

The cable runs from Asia to South Africa, and then up along the West African coast to reach the UK.

The cable serves many island ranges in the southern Indian Ocean with connectivity to Asian countries and to South Africa, and then to the UK. It also serves West African countries with connectivity to the UK, SA and Asia.

The cable system has a maximum bandwidth of about 130GBps, meaning that 130 service providers anywhere could theoretically have a 1GBps international link. In truth, most providers that buy bandwidth on the system normally go for the 155MBps package, which provides direct international connectivity to the UK and Asia at speeds faster than a Fast Ethernet LAN connection. It is possible to buy space on SAT3/WASC/SAFE from 34MBps upwards.

From the throughput characteristics I have listed, it's quite obvious that the infrastructure for serving international bandwidth is not a problem, not for Telkom anyway, who own and operate the portion of the cable system that runs through South Africa and our territorial waters.

The real problem is the incredibly high prices that providers must pay for bandwidth on the cable system. This is not the case in other nations served by the cable. Telkom appear to want to recoup the capital investment they made in their portion of the cable within the first few years. Most operators realise that such a cable project is a large, long term, undertaking, meant to benifit their local population and economy. These operators, throughout West Africa and the southern Indian Ocean, provide bandwidth on the cable system to service providers and national backbones at reasonable prices.

Telkom, however, do not realise the economic importance of access to this fantastic infrastructure. Instead, they milk South African users that wish to have access to the system for every last cent they can squeeze out of them. As a co-owner and operator, Telkom do not pay for bandwidth on the cable system. SAIX does have to pay for bandwidth, also not on the cable system, but to the backbones with which they peer at the other end of the system, in the UK.

However, that's no excuse to drive up prices saying that it's due to the cost of international bandwidth. SAIX pay extremely reasonable prices for their UK bandwidth because of the abundance that Tharaxis points out. They have almost unlimited bandwidth to the peering point via the SAT3/WASC part of the cable. This extremely cheap (by international standards) bandwidth is then resold to their customers at an unimaginable profit margin.

Telkom, who pay absolutely nothing for bandwidth on the cable system, also resells bandwidth on the system for the same, massively inflated prices. This means that anyone hoping to set up an effective link to Europe or Asia, must not only buy bandwidth from a peer in the UK or Asia (which is usually reasonably priced,) but must also buy the bandwidth to get there from Telkom, at prices that are usually far beyond the reach of most small to medium sized service providers.

On the topic of local infrastructure, I agree with Tharaxis that there is a shortage. Many connections still operate over very slow ATM links set up by Telkom long ago. As it would severely impact their profit margin, Telkom have no interest in upgrading this aging infrastructure. Even the very new ADSL network must still rely upon this old infrastructure. In most cases, the DSLAM at most exchanges provides ADSL users with a link to a PoP which has a total national bandwidth of only 2MBps, which is shared, not only with other ADSL users, but sometimes, with SAIX's Diginet customers.

It is expensive to lay new infrastructure to support broadband services, Eskom's Telecommunications arm and Transtel, (Transnet Telecommunications) reported a loss of R800 million for 2003, money spent on laying fiber infrastructure to support the SNO. The loss is due to the SNO not starting up, but that is the price to lay infrastructure reaching most major centers.

While R800 million is a lot of money, it is a very small amount for Telkom to spend. The problem here is that they won't spend it. At least, not on infrastructure. They will spend more than that on trying to impress FIFA so that we might host the World Cup in 2010, but will find their beloved country getting turned down again.

Ironically, one of the reasons cited by those voting against us the previous time, was lack of solid telecommunications infrastructure. Telkom will find, if they spent some money on helping to develop the country, instead of buying FIFA officials nice cars and trips to exotic islands, we might have a better chance, but that's not how management thinks.

Telkom management of course, do not realise that not all of FIFA can be bribed. Some of the officials look at a country's ability to host the event, not its ability to bribe officials, and make their decision based on that.

Naturally, this noble expenditure to help their beloved country win the bid will not come from them, it will be payed for by us, that's what the last rates increase was for, expect another one shortly before the Olympics.

I am very certain that the situation could improve if the SNO process ever got underway again. That's still not helping the bandwidth situation though, as last I checked, the SNO will only be allowed to carry voice calls. This means, at most, we would be able to use them to carry 56kbps V.92 traffic, but nothing with real bandwidth.

Perhaps, in the future, if the SNO does materialize, and legislation eventually changes, we might be able to gain access to the excellent infrastructure prepared by Eskom and Transtel, don't expect that to happen soon though.

Willie Viljoen
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mbs

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Fire Telkrap's strategic management and operational decision-makers!![}:)][}:)][}:)]
 

quik

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Hi Willie

Did you work for Telkom?

I would really appreciate any sources of information on this topic you could share.

<font color="blue">TRUTH does <u>not</u> <i>lie</i> in <font color="green">opinions</font id="green"> and <font color="green">perception</font id="green">... but in that which <i>conforms</i> to <font color="red">fact</font id="red"> and <font color="red">reality</font id="red"></font id="blue">
 

podo

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Apr 16, 2004
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quik,

No, but two friends had previously worked there, in addition to one person I know currently working there.

According the them, price rises always occur just at the point when a world cup, Olympics, etc, are about to occur.

As to the SAT3/WASC/SAFE cable system, you can find data and links at the official home page, http://www.safe-sat3.co.za/

Willie Viljoen
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I would just like to express my support for podo. He has good sources of information AND like me, don't ALWAYS see Telkom in a negative light.
 

podo

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Apr 16, 2004
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288
Dominic,

I always see Telkom in a negative light[:D]

All I do is try to be as positive as I can be, under the circumstances and to remind people that there are some positive sides to our situation.

I feel there is a lot of improvement yet to be made, but the vitally important point that most people seem to overlook is how much progress we have made.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development
 
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