FW de Klerk: There is an element of truth that life and public services were better under the apartheid government.

ToxicBunny

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I don’t have the power to break that cycle. Only government does (poor communities aren’t profitable for private sector).

There’s a reason that service delivery is best where political competition is strongest. And voters in each community have the power to introduce competition.
The part about service delivery I can totally agree....

The other part, you generally have SOME power (in numbers of course) when you vote... but that is a totally different discussion to this I feel.
 

Spizz

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I honestly want to know where this was. Close to townships? Majority of black people lived in the homelands.
Coincidentaly, I saw this on Facebook today.

The Lie Of Apartheid: In 1988, a German book published how benevolent the White giant of Africa actually was. Below are some of the facts referencing 1988

In 1972, South African Blacks owned 360,000 vehicles. (More than all the black African states together)

The monthly income of Blacks per capita in 1988 was R352 per month in South Africa – Malawi and Mozambique were less than R20 per month.
In 1988 Black people could undergo a complicated heart valve surgery for just more than $ 1 while Black Americans had to pay
$ 15,000. In a Pretoria hospital between 2,000 and 3,000 of these surgeries were done per year.
In 1970, Black workers earned R1,751 million, or 25.5% of the total wage fees in South Africa and increased to R17,238 million in 1984 (1,000% growth) and 32.3% of total wages in South Africa.
In the 1986/1987 financial year, Whites paid R9,000 million and Blacks R171 million tax. Indians paid R257 million and Coloreds paid R315 million on tax.
Between 1962 and 1972 the United Nations paid $ 298 million to underdeveloped countries compared to South Africa that spent $558 million on the development of its Black areas.
The budget amount for Black education increased every year from 1970 to almost 30% more than any other Government Department.
From 1955 to 1984 the number of Black scholars increased from 35,000 to 1,096,000. In 1988 71% of the adult Black population could read and write versus 47% in Kenya, 38% in Egypt and 34% in Nigeria. On average during the year 15 new classrooms per working day were built for Black scholars.
In 1985 there were 42,000 Black students enrolled at South African universities.
There were 5 Black universities and 28 higher education institutions funded by the Government.
Soweto with its population of 1.2 million, had 5 modern stadiums versus Pretoria with its 600,000 Whites who had three. Soweto had 365 schools versus Pretoria 229.
In Soweto in 1978, there were 115 football fields, three rugby fields, 4 athletic tracks, 11 cricket fields, two golf courses, 47 tennis courts, 7 swimming pools, 5 bowling halls, 81 basketball fields, 39 children playgrounds and countless community halls, cinemas and clubhouses.
In Soweto in 1978, there were 300 churches, 365 schools, 2 technicons, 8 clinics, 63 kindergartens, 11 post offices and its own fruit and vegetable market.
The White Government built a huge hospital Baragwanath 3,000 beds in Soweto. One of the largest and most modern hospitals in the world.
Its 23 operating theaters were equipped with the best equipment money can buy.
Here Blacks were treated at a nominal cost of R2 for an unlimited period.
In 1982, no fewer than 898 heart surgeries were done here.
Next to the Baragwantha Hospital is the St. John-eye clinic, famous for the treatment of glaucoma, previous fix retinas, traumatic eye injuries and rare tropical diseases.
There were over 2,300 registered firms, 1,000 taxi operators and 50,000 car owners in Soweto.
Dr. Kenneth Walker, a Canadian physician, visited Soweto and made the following observations:
He saw several houses worth more than R100 000 with various BMW’s at the door.
Only 2% of homes were shacks with neat buildings with lawns. If he had to choose between the decaying apartments in New York, Detroit or Chicago than he would rather stay in Soweto.
He’d rather be very ill in Soweto as in some Canadian cities.
He says the city has more schools, churches, cars, taxis, and sports fields than any other independent African state.
In 1978, the South African Government built a highly modern hospital MEDUNSA on the border of the independent state of Bophuthatswana at a cost of R70 million on 35 hectares. In this “city” they had living and sleeping facilities for male and female students.
Black doctors, dentists, veterinarians and para-medical staff were trained. It was the only specialized university of its kind in Africa and one of the few in the world financed by White taxpayers exclusively to benefit Blacks. Almost all students who mainly came from the national homelands costs were taken care of by the Government.
The practical training took place in the nearby Garankuwa Hospital farm where the whole range of human ailments were covered.
Garankuwa had the facilities for kidney transplants, isotopes units with specialized laboratories where 200 doctors were trained practically every year.
South Africa provided training for the airline personnel of Swaziland, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zaire and the Comores.
In 1979, when the train traffic to the Malawian capital Lilongwe was interrupted by rebels, South Africa sent transport aircrafts with fuel drums to keep their economy going.
In 1986, 80,000 Black businessmen from Africa visited Cape Town to finalize business deals.
South Africa provided the grain needs of its neighboring countries and wider. In 1980, Zambia received 250 000 tons of maize, Mozambique 150,000 tons maize and 50 000 tons of wheat, Kenya 128,000 tons maize and Zimbabwe 100 000 tons. Other countries that also received South African grain were Angola, Ivory Coast, Malawi, Mauritius, Tanzania and Zaire.
At least 12 countries of Africa, according to the “Argus African News Service” were so dependent on South Africa grain that a total ban on imports and exports would have destroyed them economically.
About half of Lesotho’s male population worked in South Africa, about 146,000 in 1983, and earned R280,6 million which was about half of Lesotho’s treasury.
In the 1982/83 financial year South Africa budgeted R434 million for assistance to the independent neighboring states.
South Africa produced more electrical energy than Italy, as much crude steel as France, more wheat than Canada, more wool than the United States, more wine than Greece and more fish than Great Britain.
South African trains ran on more rail lines than in West Germany, carried more passengers than Switzerland, had better punctuality record than Austria and exported car parts to 100 countries.
South African mines bore down to the depth of 3,480 meters and holds the record for the deepest vertical shaft at 2,498m deep into the hardest rock in the world.
They were accused by the world that it was a Police state:
In South Africa had 1.4 officers for every 1,000 people whilst the world had the following: United Kingdom 2.2, New York 4.3, and Moscow 10 per 1000. In South Africa there were 16,292 White Policemen versus 19 177 Non-White.
They were accused of killing their political offenders:
In 1979-1980 there were no deaths in South African prisons. In the previous 10 years 37 died versus 274 in the same period in Wales and England.
They were accused that they payed starvation wages:
In 1974, the average monthly income of black workers in South Africa were $ 127 versus the $ 140 in the US, the richest country in the world.
They were accused that they locked up thousands of political prisoners:
In 1983, 127 such prisoners were confined in South Africa and 11 whose movements were limited. A further 32 were under house arrest.
 

Nick333

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I honestly want to know where this was. Close to townships? Majority of black people lived in the homelands.
In major SA cities obviously. I'm not sure that the idea of the homelands was for the SA tax payers to subsidise the black homelands, so I'm not sure why you think they should have.
 

Spizz

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Also, more black people lived in the homelands or the reserves as they were known at some point.
Well it's hardly a comprehensive list, but some fact and figures nonetheless that make interesting reading.
 

konfab

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Statistically, he is isn't wrong in terms of life expectancy.


You can read the sorry history (you know riddled with Zumas) of the ANC's HIV policy.
https://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/history-official-government-hivaids-policy-south-africa

Effective ARVs were available in 1996.
https://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/Fulltext/2012/06190/The_history_of_antiretroviral_therapy_and_of_its.12.aspx

Which effectively means it took the ANC 10 years to react to a major public health crisis, one that was known about before hand.
 

Thorium

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Women in their sixties reminisce about the bad old days of apartheid, and talk about what has changed since then. "In 1967 I was pregnant and hiding from the police in a forest because I had no passbook,” said Nozipho Khumalo. "Back then, we all helped each other. The kids today don’t do that, they are into drugs and alcohol, don’t work and just get pregnant. Ubuntu ended with us,” said Lilian Olifant.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-04-24-gogos-look-back-video/
 

schuits

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He's not wrong. People who lived in the suburbs appear to have enjoyed world class services.
I travel past Alex everyday. For months, MONTHS raw sewer has been flowing out a pipe past houses into the Jukskei. Where I lived a call to the ward Councillor got a sewer problem fixed in a few days.
 

Kosmik

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This is a huge point.

"Our kids cannot play in the park. I was little and we used to run into the fields for hours in a day and nobody bothered to look for us. That was freedom. We are not in a country that enjoys freedom."
My father and I used to walk from South Beach to Berea, day or night and never stress about crime. Crime is rampant today and especially places like Pinetown central , you quite literally walk in fear of your life , regardless of skin colour.
 
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ToxicBunny

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This is a huge point.



My father and I used to walk from South Beach to Berea, day or night and never stress about crime. Crime is rampant today and especially places like Pinetown central , you quite literally walk in fear of your life , regardless of skin colour.
You would walk in Pinetown central? Are you fscking mental?
 

The Free Radical

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So 13% of the South African Population pays income tax, the other 87% doesnt. Sad but true. 61% is on wellfare and demand greater wellfare paycheques. Chances are they will never pay income tax in their lifetime.

1% of the population top earners pay 61% of the income tax.

In terms of revenue sources, personal income tax accounts for 38% of revenue, with value-added tax making up 25%. Companies tax accounts for 18%, followed by the fuel levy (6%), customs (4%), other sources (4%), excise duties (3%) and dividend withholding tax (2%).

The biggest portion of the budget goes to the public wage bill (36%) and social grants (17%).

Comparing South Africa to the United States, both countries pay taxes that equal about 25% of their annual GDP – however, in the USA 47% of people don’t pay taxes, compared to 87% in South Africa.

In 2010, the top 1% of taxpayers in the US contributed about 37% of the total income tax bill – “compare that to the 61% mentioned above,” he said.

Also South Africa has lost almost a quarter of its high net worth citizens in the past 5 years to emigration, with the pace of people leaving now accelerating.

This is leading to South Africa possibly having a shortfall of R200 billion rand in taxes for 2019.

So do tell, where will the money come from for fixing the Road, or Eskom, or keep bailing out SAA.

Soon there wouldn't be enough to pay welfare, and when that happens, all hell will break loose, and fixing roads will be the last worry you may have.

The reality is life won't be getting better for the majority of black people in SA until they take education seriously, instill confidence in employers and investors and then catch up paying the taxes in the ratios of other racial groups.

The days of sponsorship and handouts are over. Its pay your way or starve.

Survival of the fittest in terms of education and willingness to work diligently and honestly for reward.
 

surface

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I honestly want to know where this was. Close to townships? Majority of black people lived in the homelands.
What I find interesting is when question is raised as to who benefitted from apartheid, you find that most of these people were too young or infants in 1994 or they came to SA only after 1994. But, when "good" apartheid question is raised, same people seem to have all the information on fingertips.
 

SaiyanZ

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This is a huge point.

"Our kids cannot play in the park. I was little and we used to run into the fields for hours in a day and nobody bothered to look for us. That was freedom. We are not in a country that enjoys freedom."
My father and I used to walk from South Beach to Berea, day or night and never stress about crime. Crime is rampant today and especially places like Pinetown central , you quite literally walk in fear of your life , regardless of skin colour.
Yeah, I used to stay out late after school playing cricket with friends and roaming around the neighborhood, not having to worry about crime.

If I ever have kids, they wouldn't be able to do the same.
 

Solarion

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I think one of the major differences between then and now is that now the gangsterism element has spiralled out of control and they are not afraid of the police.
 
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