FW de Klerk: There is an element of truth that life and public services were better under the apartheid government.

Sollie

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#84
Absolutely no one builds one of the biggest hospitals for altruistic reasons in township.
What I think makes people angry is fact that what was built was not maintained or extended to help majority of the people.
Just look at the schools, how can it be that still today we have hundreds if not thousands schools with pit toilets?!
Those same homelands are not developed today after 25 years of democracy.
Just an honest question: Do you think that pit latrines where only the domain of black people? What about farms schools, white and black?
 

Sollie

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#85
Wasn't Jane Furse built by missionaries? The same with St. Ritas? And many other hospitals in the homelands?
Don't know Ritas. If memory serves, yes, Jane Furse was started by missionaries, then expanded by then government. Denilton was a place where you stopped if a chicken ran across the road and you hit it (goats, cows, donkeys were not a good idea - rather stop - personal experience :X3:). Then the hospital and school was built. That started more development.
 

ɹǝuuᴉM

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#86
Wasn't Jane Furse built by missionaries? The same with St. Ritas? And many other hospitals in the homelands?
In part yes. White missionaries initially and government subsidised later on. Same goes for the "Jewel of Modjadji" GaKapane hospital - now a disfunctional rubbish dump. #SoSad
 

SaiyanZ

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#88
A lot of Apartheid nostalgia is predicated on the fallacy that service delivery was good.

Yes, it was good for 10% of the population. It was good because the vast majority of the governments efforts were legislated to cater for the minority. It is easy to deliver when you focus on such a narrow objective.

The effort that was directed towards the majority was somewhat incidental, somewhat planned to suite an economic purpose (services for a township close to a mine) and in some cases to suite an ideological objective.
It was easy to cater for 10% of the population when the 10% was also paying their fair share of taxes. Now they are catering for 100% of the population and most don't pay any taxes. The bulk of our population are living on handouts, expect freebies, and think money grows on trees.

Here's something that should scare people. The non tax paying portion of the population has exploded in the last few decades and our population is now largely made up of young blacks below 14 years old.

According to the 2015 census, we have 55mill people in SA, 44mill blacks (80.5%) and of those 14.2mill (32.2%) are below 14 years of age.

Compare this to the other race groups, all of them combined there are only about 10.7mill and of those 2.2mill (20.5%) are below 14 years of age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Africa

It's only going to get more difficult to service everyone in the future with these growth rates. We already have such high unemployment rates which is only going to get larger when all these kids come of age. Our population is growing way faster than the tax budget so there's going to be less money available to service each person as time goes on.
 

Sollie

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#90
It was easy to cater for 10% of the population when the 10% was also paying their fair share of taxes. Now they are catering for 100% of the population and most don't pay any taxes. The bulk of our population are living on handouts, expect freebies, and think money grows on trees.

Here's something that should scare people. The non tax paying portion of the population has exploded in the last few decades and our population is now largely made up of young blacks below 14 years old.

According to the 2015 census, we have 55mill people in SA, 44mill blacks (80.5%) and of those 14.2mill (32.2%) are below 14 years of age.

Compare this to the other race groups, all of them combined there are only about 10.7mill and of those 2.2mill (20.5%) are below 14 years of age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Africa

It's only going to get more difficult to service everyone in the future with these growth rates. We already have such high unemployment rates which is only going to get larger when all these kids come of age. Our population is growing way faster than the tax budget so there's going to be less money available to service each person as time goes on.
I pointed out something similar elsewhere, this is where the whole issue down south started:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_South_Africa#Before_Union
When the UK took over the Cape, first in 1795 and then more permanently in 1806, they inherited a sprawling, thinly populated pastoral settlement that depended on the labour of slaves and a rural workforce of indigenous Khoikhoi whose condition was akin to serfdom. In 1806 the entire population of the colony consisted of fewer than 80,000 people: 26,768 whites, 1,200 free blacks (manumitted slaves), 29,861 slaves and 20,426 Khoikhoi.
By 1886 Africans made up 43 per cent of the vote in six constituencies of the Eastern Cape, and were a real political force
 

Thorium

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#91
Just an honest question: Do you think that pit latrines where only the domain of black people? What about farms schools, white and black?
Naa, the eevl white peeple had flushing toilet and bidets wherever they went, even at the top of the Drakensberg, they prayed to forskin fathas and magiced them from their oxwagons.
 

ForceFate

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#92
In part yes. White missionaries initially and government subsidised later on. Same goes for the "Jewel of Modjadji" GaKapane hospital - now a disfunctional rubbish dump. #SoSad
It's not like the ones I mentioned were functional before
 

aleksandar

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#93
Just an honest question: Do you think that pit latrines where only the domain of black people? What about farms schools, white and black?
Absolutely not, based on friends stories (white ones) they also used them and were without ESKOM electricity on their farm. Village where I go to visit also has them.

What I wanted to emphasise is government inability to resolve basic need and make sure that kids at least have safe toilets.
In particular when we are in 21 century and mechanics of safe ablutions with water are known for more than 2000 years.
 

Wasabee!

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#94
There was a time where the post office delivered the post. a Time where SABC made a profit. a Time where SAA made a profit. a Time where Eskom was making a profit. a Time where your tax paid for the highways and not the eToll scam.
Can you stop raining on the denialists parade? They're trying to focus on the racism of apartheid. Stop bringing up the good governance, it's screwing up their angle.
 

Geoff.D

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#95
So, let us use an example. Does anyone know the history of Ventersdorp? Beside the AWB links.
Let see what the response is.
 

evilstebunny

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#96
Jenny Govender has spent the first 25 years of her life living under the apartheid regime, and the other 25 years enjoying freedom. She gives us her thoughts on the state of the country ahead of the elections.

https://ewn.co.za/2019/04/24/half-life-jenny-govender-reflects-on-sa-under-apartheid-and-democracy
Gotta love how people like her run away from the very problem they helped create. Ooh let's vote for the ANC, then when life goes to ****, democracy doesn't work I'm not going to vote anymore. Surprise! What you voted for was not democracy, now dry those tears and go vote DA or ZACP or any party that can fix the mistake you made over the last 25 years..
 

aleksandar

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#97
Gotta love how people like her run away from the very problem they helped create. Ooh let's vote for the ANC, then when life goes to ****, democracy doesn't work I'm not going to vote anymore. Surprise! What you voted for was not democracy, now dry those tears and go vote DA or ZACP or any party that can fix the mistake you made over the last 25 years..
Exactly, look at Vuwani. Destroyed schools, unhappy with government and how when they have chance to change it they like in previous elections decided not to vote.
In my head I have that in last election out of over 40000 voters only just over 1000 voted.

Found it 2016 Viwani
 
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Sollie

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Absolutely not, based on friends stories (white ones) they also used them and were without ESKOM electricity on their farm. Village where I go to visit also has them.

What I wanted to emphasise is government inability to resolve basic need and make sure that kids at least have safe toilets.
In particular when we are in 21 century and mechanics of safe ablutions with water are known for more than 2000 years.
Thanks. You answered my question and made my point as well.

My point was that many people did not have certain facilities, regardless of colour. If you wanted to go to hospital, you had to get in your car and drive, first gravel road, then eventually put foot on the tar. Heaven help if there was an emergency. That's why each farm had things like snake bite serum, first aid kits etc. They were used for all on the farm equally. Evil damn farmers we hear about nowadays - oh lol!

If you wanted power, you had to pay for it, even the power line from X to you. It was not a right - you did not simply get it mahala. Ditto running water, we pumped water from the river into a tank, drank that water. We dug a French drain (actually twice in 10 years), put in an in-house toilet. Bit by bit we built. This were not given to us. I grew up with candles, Alladin, Zero. Cadac was too hot. Nothing was give. You took responsibility for your own destiny. The same was happening across the border in Lebowa from us which bordered on our farm. Some whites were poor, some better off. Some blacks were poor, some better off.

Yes, a lot was crap, but a lot of what people demand now, blaming everybody except themselves for, was equally crap for everybody (ironically now depriving people of it). Being white was not some magical formula to wealth and success in everything.

I'm making this point because I fear next we will be hearing the apartheid government deprived people of internet back in the 80's. This is where these conversations head to nowadays. A lot of bad things happened back then, yes. But all you hear is not true. You can't compare living then to living now. There were different value systems back then for all. You made the best of it and heaven help you if you didn't succeed.
 
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