Global Warming - running out of time to prevent ECONOMIC disaster

mercurial

MyBB Legend
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
40,902
Burping Worms May Contribute to Climate Change

Aquatic animals that feed on lake and stream bottom sediments burp out small amounts of nitrous oxide, a potent greenhouse gas, a new study finds.

While the biological emissions from these critters pales in comparison to the nitrous oxide emitted by fossil fuel burning, their contribution could increase as more and more nitrogen-rich fertilizer runs off into lakes, streams and seas, the authors of the study said.

Full article
 

BCO

Honorary Master
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
13,229
Well Gray is respected more for his work on hurricanes than climate change for one thing. Also, the article you linked has not undergone any peer review.

Busy playing Warhammer right now though so no time for a long post.
 

BattleMoose

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
233
@Bandwidthaddict

You just posted a few random links which do not even present a coherent argument.

You posted a bunch of stuff about sea level rise and I /assume/ that you are suggesting there is no link between sea level rise and temperature. I don't think this is explicitly stated anywhere, as well it shouldn't because its bunk.

One of the links you posted showed rapid sea level rise at about 20 to 8 thousand years ago. What you failed to notice, indeed even failed to check for, was that the earth warmed rapidly during this time as well. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Vostok-ice-core-petit.png I am completely unaware of any argument that even suggests that sea level rise/drop is not directly linked to temperature. Perhaps you can concoct one.

Another link was about a lake that froze, one which incidentally freezez regularly, I don't think anyone is surpised, at all. Incidentally, some places are actually expected to get colder.

A particular irony, is that there is the suggestion that the urban heat island effect causes the temperature measurements to be inaccurate. Then, the same temperature measurements that you accuse for being inaccurate are being used to claim that there is a cooling trend.

Using data that you believe is inaccurate to forward your argument is just so unethical.

Incidentally both of the arguments that you suggest are also bunk.

The idea that climate scientists, whose proffesion it is to study and conduct measurements, are both unaware of urban heat island effect and don't adjust for it, is just, weird. Links, http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/02/warming-due-to-urban-heat-island.php http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=43

Also, there was a La Nina event in 2008. 2008 was expected to be cooler than than 2007, and is completely unsurprising that it was. There really isn't a valid arugument in any of the links that you posted.
 

BandwidthAddict

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
2,380
Of course I am dishonest, I mean here are the facts:

  • I claimed that Man-Made Global Warming was a fact and I had all these models to show that the Earth's temperature will continue to grow until we all fry, if the rising oceans did not get us. Except the reality, from the horses mouth (UAH) http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ . Check out that black line, it's going straight up?
  • I claimed, during Katrina, that this was but the beginning. Hurricanes would sweep across the world and flatten everything. New Orleans was but a taster. Err .. and then this happens: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/...as-decreased-to-the-lowest-level-in-30-years/ . Darn it.
  • Then I claimed that the arctic ice would disappear, some dude would kayak to the North Pole, and we would all drown (because I don't know that floating ice, when melted, results in a decrease of volume, not increase) but once again .. THIS HAPPENS!!! http://nsidc.org/images/arcticseaicenews/200903_Figure2.png
  • Why does Gaia hate me so, doesn't she know I love her .. er, I hate MAN!!!

Here is why I think I will never accept the facts:

(Comment attached to : http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/...egrees-columnist-questions-climate-situation/ )
Graeme Rodaughan (22:15:40) :

Global warming is not only no longer happening, it is not likely to resume until 2025 or later, if then. So why are we continuing to hear so much doomsaying about climate change?

[1] Expectation of dominion over other human beings - Lust for Power.

[2] Expectation of continued funding for AGW “Science” - Addiction to the AGW Gravy Train.

[3] Validation of long held beliefs in the face of contrary evidence - Cognitive Dissonance is Painful.

[4] Because - otherwise they would have to admit being wrong, duped and lied too - Avoidance of Public Shame.

[5] Expectation of “Green” profits from taxpayer funded Government subsidies - Ruthless Greed.

[6] It’s too much fun to stop - Psychopathic Fantasy Wish Fulfillment.

[7] What else would I write? - News Reporter Deadline Anxiety and Fear of Writer’s Block.

[8] Because I would no longer be “Saving the Planet from Evil Humans”. - Self Righteous need for Validation of Personal Meaning in the face of a Meaningless Universe.

[9] Addiction to flying Business Class to International Conferences in Bali, Copenhagen, etc… - Addiction to Free Lunches

Plus some others that I haven’t thought of yet…
 
Last edited:

BandwidthAddict

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
2,380

Very interesting article. Similar lines to PDO.

Well Gray is respected more for his work on hurricanes than climate change for one thing. Also, the article you linked has not undergone any peer review.

Busy playing Warhammer right now though so no time for a long post.

I wasn't going to comment but how can I resist such an opening. It's like shooting babies with frozen candy.

So our resident pope, one who did/does not understand the relationship of geology and biology to his religion (for starters say ice core and tree rings class) now does not understand the relation of hurricane study to temperature, water vapor, pressure units and oceanographic temperature monitoring and modelling? And of course, none of that overlaps with climate study? Yeah right!

This is just so ripe .. Ma always said that reason and religion don't mix son .. pick one.

Heartland Institute funded paper... how strange that it's contrarian. /sarcasm

But you listen to people who have been found wrong on more than one occasion, working on flawed data sets, and who refuse to release ALL their code and data for unrestricted peer review and prefer that only an "elite" few can review their work .. the same elite few that are staunch believers and who have a personal or financial reason to want AGW to be true.

Like a true religion, dissenting voices must be ridiculed, labelled and silenced!!! I must admit, it is fun :)

/Reason out/
 

BandwidthAddict

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
2,380
Wow .. I love this link .. check out these paragraphs:

http://www.epw.senate.gov/public/in...ecord_id=10fe77b0-802a-23ad-4df1-fc38ed4f85e3

UN IPCC Scientist Dr. Steven M. Japar, a PhD atmospheric chemist who was part of Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s (IPCC) Second (1995) and Third (2001) Assessment Reports, and has authored 83 peer-reviewed publications and in the areas of climate change, atmospheric chemistry, air pollutions and vehicle emissions, challenged the IPCC’s climate claims.

“Temperature measurements show that the [climate model-predicted mid-troposphere] hot zone is non-existent. This is more than sufficient to invalidate global climate models and projections made with them!” Japar told the minority staff on the Environment and Public Works Committee on January 7, 2009.

Mathematical Physicist Dr. Frank Tipler, professor at Tulane University who has authored 58 peer-reviewed publications and five books, ridiculed man-made climate claims. “Whether the ice caps melt, or expand --- whatever happens --- the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) theorists claim it confirms their theory. A perfect example of a pseudo-science like astrology," Tipler wrote on December 22, 2008.

Botanist Dr. David Bellamy, a famed UK environmental campaigner, former lecturer at Durham University, and host of a popular UK TV series on wildlife, says the international promotion of man-made global warming fears are nearing their end. (Note: Bellamy was in the original 2007 U.S. Senate report.] “The *science has, quite simply, gone awry. In fact, it’s not even science any more, it’s anti-science,” Bellamy, who used to believe in man-made warming, declared on November 5, 2008.

And this is 100% true:

“The sky is not burning, and to claim that it is amounts to journalistic malpractice…the press only promotes the global warming alarmists and ignores or minimizes those of us who are skeptical,” Chapman wrote on January 13, 2009.

BWA my boyeee!! You're gonna see these AGW nutheads explode :)

I think I will fund a new power generator .. put BC into a "reactor" and use the steam coming out of his ears to turn a turbine. Free electricity (with minimal carbon footprint) :)

I just hope that we turn the corner before the politicians manage to get cap-and-trade policies riveted into place. Otherwise .. curtains for the middle class.
 

BandwidthAddict

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
2,380
Dr. Syun Akasofu on IPCC’s forecast accuracy:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/20/dr-syun-akasofu-on-ipccs-forecast-accuracy/

Green arrow is current position:

akasofu_ipcc.jpg


I bet the leftards are eating into their meds right now, especially when more articles pop up:

Recent Ocean Heat and MLO CO2 Trends

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/21/recent-ocean-heat-and-mlo-co2-trends/

Ocean heat going down? Does that not mean cooling?

loehle_ocean_heat_content.png


With all this cooling, the leftards heads may actually shrink to near normal size .. Aha .. we have the real reason for recent global warming .. leftards trying to think giving off massive amounts of heat.

Dudes .. stick to the thought leaders .. thinking is for normal people.
 

BandwidthAddict

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
2,380
EPA: Global Warming Threatens Public Health, Welfare

These people will not stop until they have been stopped (preferably in a permanent way) or they wind back the world to the darkest of ages where there was the king, the aristocrats and everyone else were serfs. You don't think this is what they want? Try looking at their actions over the decades with an open mind and look at those that have actually implemented these crazy concepts.

Anyway, the article. This time I am not just linking, but quoting so there is no excuse not to read it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/23/AR2009032301068.html?hpid=topnews

The Environmental Protection Agency sent a proposal to the White House on Friday finding that global warming is endangering the public's health and welfare, according to several sources, a move that could have far-reaching implications for the nation's economy and environment.

The proposal -- which comes in response to a 2007 Supreme Court decision ordering EPA to consider whether carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases should be regulated under the Clean Air Act -- could lay the groundwork for nationwide measures to limit such emissions. It reverses one of the Bush administration's landmark environmental decisions: In July 2008 then-EPA administrator Stephen Johnson rejected his scientific and technical staff's recommendation and announced the agency would seek months of further public comment on the threat posed by global warming pollution.

"This is historic news," said Frank O'Donnell, who heads the public watchdog group Clean Air Watch. "It will set the stage for the first-ever national limits on global warming pollution. And it is likely to help light a fire under Congress to get moving."

But business groups decried the move as an economic disaster. BWA: Ya think?!?

"By moving forward with the endangerment finding on greenhouse gases, EPA is putting in motion a set of decisions that may have far-reaching unintended consequences," said Bill Kovacs, vice president of environment, technology and regulatory affairs at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. "Specifically, once the finding is made, no matter how limited, some environmental groups will sue to make sure it is applied to all aspects of the Clean Air Act.

"This will mean that all infrastructure projects, including those under the president's stimulus initiative, will be subject to environmental review for greenhouse gases. Since not one of the projects has been subjected to that review, it is possible that the projects under the stimulus initiative will cease. This will be devastating to the economy."

In December 2007 EPA submitted a written recommendation to the White House urging the Bush administration to allow EPA to state officially that global warming is a threat to human welfare. But senior White House officials refused to open the document and urged Johnson to reconsider, saying such a finding would trigger sweeping regulatory requirements under the 45-year-old Clean Air Act. An EPA analysis had found the move would cost utilities, automakers and others billions of dollars while also bringing benefits to other economic sectors.

EPA officials could not be reached immediately today for comment on the proposal.

Several congressional Democrats had urged EPA administrator Lisa P. Jackson to move ahead with an endangerment finding on the grounds that it was scientifically warranted and would help push Congress to enact a national cap on greenhouse gases. Unlike President George W. Bush, President Obama backs such mandatory limits.

On Thursday Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), who chairs the Environment and Public Works Committee, said, "There is no question that the law and the facts require an endangerment finding, and it should happen without further delay, and I believe it will."

What endangerment? There is NO, REPEAT NO OBSERVABLE endangerment except that which is shown in STATISTICAL COMPUTER SIMULATIONS (aka models). Notice the word STATISTIC .. you know .. lies, damn lies, STATISTICS!!!

I mean look at that recent thread spewed by the greenies about how the sea level rise is going to be worse than expected. Where they get the projections from? STATISTICAL MODELS!! .. Those same models that did not predict the current cooling trend. Yep .. they are so perfect that they can't even get recent climate history correct.

You smug greenie [text edited]! Don't you realise that you will ALSO be affected .. you so rich that you don't mind a MASSIVE EFFECTIVE pay cut? You don't mind earning 50% or more LESS than you are now? Even though I am pulling these figures from my a**, look at what last years electricity issue has done for SA prices. Off the scale .. and this is just the start.

Don't forget that the 2% GDP reduction has been linked to a 10% reduction in production of commodities exports. It just so happens that the mines, and smelters, have to work using 10% less electricity. Coincidence? What happens when they have to cap an additional 10%, or 20%, or more? You think our GDP will not be affected?

I have come to hate you greenies so much it hurts to know that you breathe!! Think about that .. think about all the people who just want to live normal lives but can't because the greenies won't leave them alone. The greenies that think they know everything .. those sad, useless, pieces of [text edited] that need to get off by ruining other people's lives. How many millions have died of malaria because of Silent Spring? Everything you touch is destroyed!

You [text edited] prevent controlled burning and entire towns are wiped out in uncontrolled forest fires. You prevent dams and people go thirsty. You cut off cheap gas and electricity and thousands, maybe millions, freeze to death every year. And you sit there smugly thinking .. "good, the world needs less people".

What the world needs is less pretentious [text edited] like yourself and more honest, decent people. You are just lucky that people like me have morals, ethics and personal responsibility. Because if people like us were a little more like you, well, then the fun begins.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BattleMoose

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
233
What endangerment? There is NO, REPEAT NO OBSERVABLE endangerment except that which is shown in STATISTICAL COMPUTER SIMULATIONS (aka models). Notice the word STATISTIC .. you know .. lies, damn lies, STATISTICS!!!

This is just so absurdly not true, and it warrants no further comment.

The rest of your post is just filled with, complete nonsense, bizarre assumptions and a complete misunderstanding of everything the 'green movement' is actually about.

You should realise (God knows why someone who has clearly put alot of effort doesnt know this) that all models are grounded in historical data. If they can accuratly model historical data, with historical inputs, then well, they are kinda useful, by projecting them into the future.

Its heavily grounded in science and is a very established and useful research tool.

There is absolutley no evidence of a cooling trend, whatsoever.

Quite the contrary.

After paring their suite of 23 climate models down to the best half-dozen, two researchers now say with new confidence that summer ice will most likely disappear around 2037. But none of the select models predicts a tipping point--a sudden jump to an ice-free summer Arctic. "They've identified the most credible models," says polar researcher John Walsh of the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, and "the most realistic models are the most sensitive to future [greenhouse] changes." All in all, it's bad news for the bears.

The new model study recognizes that not all climate models are created equal. For the 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) assessment, modelers around the world ran 23 different climate models with and without rising greenhouse gases. The fate they predicted for arctic ice ranged from complete loss in the summer by 2020 to only slight losses by 2100, and almost everywhere in between. Modeler Julienne Stroeve of the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) at the University of Colorado, Boulder, and her colleagues shrank the IPCC list to the 13 models that did a reasonable job of reproducing the observed slow decline of the extent of summer sea ice, but that still left them with a considerable range of losses by 2100.

SCIENCE VOL 323 27 MARCH 2009, published by AAAS. Take note of the date.

And you know what the biggest difference between your links and mine are. Mine are peer reviewed! Not just peer reviewd, but peer reviewd by the most credible scientific organisation on the planet.

And another note, learn to control your emotions, your responses are that which can be expected from a young irrational child throwing a temper tantrum. Ratoinality, civility and mutual respect are hallmarks of good scientific discusson.
 

BandwidthAddict

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
2,380
Models are accurate? Prove it.

You talk about peer reviewed without actually understanding what it means. It is like having the word "SALE" displayed in storefronts or the use of the ".99" in prices when you mean "1.00". Just because it says SALE, does not always mean you're getting a good deal.

The fact that it is peer reviewed (quantity) does not factor in how it was peer reviewed, and the objectivity of the reviewer (quality). It is not peer reviewed when only your buddies, who want you to be right, are the reviewers.

Do you have proof of actual reviews being performed (IE duplication of results, checks for data accuracy etc) or is it just some dude that SAID it was OK? It seems you hold a burden of proof for the PRO-AGW crowd to be orders of magnitude less than for the ANTI-AGW crowd.

Notice how these articles, which claim that they are peer reviewed, refuse to provide all the relevant details, code and data to people like Anthony Watts and Steve McIntyre. Notice how many errors these two have picked up on yet the culprit's methodology is unchanged?

You talk about accuracy but when NOAA and others admit that they don't do complete QA, how can you trust them. How many mistakes have they made?

Then there is the actual "massaging" of values:

(from http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/...what-katrina-did-for-temperature-measurement/ )

pascagoula_3n_ms_giss_anim.gif


Also, temperature sensors have been moved around. Does this not factor into how historical representation can be flawed?

So your models are super accurate? How can that be when they don't take into consideration: water vapour, dust, ocean sinks and heat tractors, cosmic rays etc. Then there is the danger of just extrapolating from the past:

akasofu_ipcc.jpg

(Green arrow is current)

If you really want to know more, read this site:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/

He has details.

The fact of the matter is that you AGW people are as honest as used car salesmen. You fit your desires to the facts you want, and hide the facts that disagree with you. It's just sick.

If you show me actual, observable, proof of AGW, I will accept it. That is the difference between us. Religion vs science.
 
Top