Government to spend R25m for Caster Semenya's defence

pinball wizard

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This hasn't been proven at all. And there are many factors which influence performance between females, other than testosterone so why pick just that one?

Why do athletes inject it into their bodies to increase their athletic performance then?
 

Cray

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Then she should release her medical records to stop all the speculation. And she should not be competing until this is settled. Simple.

I tend to agree but that is not my decision to make and neither should it be anyone else's but her's alone.

She is a cheater in the eyes of many. Stop telling people to reject what their own eyes are telling them and policing their thoughts.
Oh please, that's such a cop out, we are having a disagreement, since when is that "policing thoughts"... ? You state your opinion based on unconfirmed facts but when I disagree with you I am "policing thoughts".... o_O
 

Emjay

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I tend to agree but that is not my decision to make and neither should it be anyone else's but her's alone.


Oh please, that's such a cop out, we are having a disagreement, since when is that "policing thoughts"... ? You state your opinion based on unconfirmed facts but when I disagree with you I am "policing thoughts".... o_O

They are not unconfirmed facts. Her testosterone levels point to an intersex disorder. She does not have naturally high testosterone levels. Her levels are higher than other women by a factor of three.

If she were a woman she would have released all her reports by now. This is not an issue of principles, it is about protecting her right to participate unfairly.
 

C4Cat

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Why do athletes inject it into their bodies to increase their athletic performance then?
Who knows? They obviously think it does, doesn't mean it actually does.
Androstenedione

What is it?
Androstenedione (andro) is a hormone produced by the adrenal glands, ovaries and testes. It's a hormone that's normally converted to testosterone and a form of estrogen (estradiol) in both men and women.

Andro is available legally only by prescription and is a controlled substance. Its use as a performance-enhancing drug is illegal in the United States.


Manufacturers and bodybuilding magazines tout andro's ability to allow athletes to train harder and recover more quickly. Scientific studies that refute these claims show that supplemental androstenedione doesn't increase testosterone and that your muscles don't get stronger with andro use.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...epth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

Anyway, just because artificially injecting steroids or whatever increases your own ability doesn't mean someone with a naturally higher level of testosterone has a clear advantage. Caster still hasn't beaten the international records so clearly she isn't outcompeting everyone
 

Emjay

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This hasn't been proven at all. And there are many factors which influence performance between females, other than testosterone so why pick just that one?


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...r-semenya-iaaf-science-athletics-testosterone

The key study which is the cornerstone of your article links to this:

https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/hyperandrogenism-research

The study analysed 2127 mass spectrometry-measured serum androgen concentrations obtained from elite athletes participating in the 2011 and 2013 IAAF World Championships.

Among other things, the study found that in certain events female athletes with high testosterone levels benefit from a 1.8% to 4.5% competitive advantage over female athletes with lower testosterone levels.

Dr Bermon commented: “Our starting position is to defend, protect and promote fair female competition. If, as the study shows, in certain events female athletes with higher testosterone levels can have a competitive advantage of between 1.8-4.5% over female athletes with lower testosterone levels, imagine the magnitude of the advantage for female athletes with testosterone levels in the normal male range. This study is one part of the evidence the IAAF will be submitting to CAS regarding the degree of performance advantage that hyperandrogenic female athletes enjoy over female athletes with normal testosterone levels. We continue to gather more data and research on our journey to providing a fair and level playing field for females in our sport."
 

C4Cat

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The key study which is the cornerstone of your article links to this:

https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/hyperandrogenism-research
Yes, that's the one which they said:
now looks deeply flawed. Andrew Gelman, Higgins professor of statistics at Columbia University, described the analysis as “such a mess that I can’t really figure out what data they are working with, what exactly they are doing, or the connection between some of their analyses and their scientific goals”.

Anyway, I know both the IAAF and Caster have lists of expert witnesses to testify about precisely these kinds of issues.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/who-are-caster-semenya-lawyers-iaaf-testosterone/
 

Emjay

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Yes, that's the one which they said:


Anyway, I know both the IAAF and Caster have lists of expert witnesses to testify about precisely these kinds of issues.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/who-are-caster-semenya-lawyers-iaaf-testosterone/

I am not sold at all. Testosterone has many benefits. Testosterone definitly helps with explosive power, which sprinting requires.

What's missing here is whether Caster is a man or not. Men have many other inherit advantages. If she is intersex, but has male physiology on a cellular level, should should not be competing with women. A chromosomal test will tell us this, and whether she has internal male sexual organs, or not.

Edit:

Thinking about it some more. This study actually makes a bigger case against trans athletes competing against women. Hormonal therapy does not then normalize performance between the sexes.
 
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C4Cat

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I am not sold at all. Testosterone has many benefits. Testosterone definitly helps with explosive power, which sprinting requires.

What's missing here is whether Caster is a man or not. Men have many other inherit advantages. If she is intersex, but has male physiology on a cellular level, should should not be competing with women. A chromosomal test will tell us this, and whether she has internal male sexual organs, or not.

Edit:

Thinking about it some more. This study actually makes a bigger case against trans athletes competing against women. Hormonal therapy does not then normalize performance between the sexes.
Caster is not a man. I don't think anybody disputes that on either side of this case.
 

TysonRoux

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Caster is not a man. I don't think anybody disputes that on either side of this case.
Caster is not a female. I think only the fools, or freaks, would dispute that on either side of this case, .
 

C4Cat

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Honestly, I'm starting to think they should have a separate section for intersex athletes to compete: Male events, Female events, Intersex events. Allow females to enter into the intersex event as well, if they want to test their mettle. Test every single athlete, male and female, for any intersex condition and put them in the associated event.
 

Craig_

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Wasn't it born with testicles? Or am I mistaken?
It was actually an honest question and not meant sarcastic at all, I don't know what hides under there. It could be hanging bigger than most men on this forum for all we know.
 

C4Cat

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It was actually an honest question and not meant sarcastic at all, I don't know what hides under there. It could be hanging bigger than most men on this forum for all we know.
None of us know, it's a private/personal matter. She knows, her doctors know, her lawyers probably know and IAAF know. The public doesn't know. However, according to rumours and apparent media leaks, externally she has the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of a female (vagina and breasts), however internally she has testes and no ovaries.
 

ForceFate

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Honestly, I'm starting to think they should have a separate section for intersex athletes to compete: Male events, Female events, Intersex events. Allow females to enter into the intersex event as well, if they want to test their mettle. Test every single athlete, male and female, for any intersex condition and put them in the associated event.

And test for every hormone or physical trait that may vaguely boost performance as well? We may be heading a wrong way here.
 

C4Cat

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And test for every hormone or physical trait that may vaguely boost performance as well? We may be heading a wrong way here.
And don't forget that some male athletes have very low testosterone - some within the range of females - which may give them an edge in some events by making them leaner than the average male. Not sure what to do about them :unsure:
 

Craig_

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None of us know, it's a private/personal matter. She knows, her doctors know, her lawyers probably know and IAAF know. The public doesn't know. However, according to rumours and apparent media leaks, externally she has the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of a female (vagina and breasts), however internally she has testes and no ovaries.
If this is the case she is primarily a woman.
 

Jola

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And don't forget that some male athletes have very low testosterone - some within the range of females - which may give them an edge in some events by making them leaner than the average male. Not sure what to do about them :unsure:

It's irrelevant, the males are in an unrestricted category.
 
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