Grandfather with gun chases off armed suspects

Ponderer

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and I was ignoring your obvious attempt to set me up for a put down. guns are machines. Are machines evil?
A gun is a tool/device.
A tool/device can be used for "good" or "bad", but is in itself neither of the two.
It would seem that you are under the impression that guns are "bad/evil".
 

Zoomzoom

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A gun is a tool/device.
A tool/device can be used for "good" or "bad", but is in itself neither of the two.
It would seem that you are under the impression that guns are "bad/evil".
and TA DA there we have it folks you went there anyway without any help from me. So why did you ask? You can sprout this rubbish all on your own.
 

Ponderer

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and TA DA there we have it folks you went there anyway without any help from me. So why did you ask? You can sprout this rubbish all on your own.
I was trying to make sense of your posts.
I thought you were trying to make some or other point with your posts, but failed to understand what that point was.
I still don't know.
 

OCP

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But what you guys aren't mentioning or including in your assessment is how many times a robber took a gun and, now armed, used it to kill or wound the owner, because that also happens.

Nor are you considering other outcomes:

They took what they wanted and hitting granny was the worst of it.
They took what they wanted and raped the woman, but there was no shooting/killing.
Something else disturbed them and they fled.
The grandpa/kids in hiding pressed the panic button and the armed response showed up and they fled.

The worst outcome is only one of many possibilities.

Ditto for the outcome with grandpa opening fire. We have the given outcome - grandpa is shot in the leg, robbers fled with his gun (which btw means they got close enough to him after he was shot to pick up and didn't use it or their own guns to kill him). Other outcomes include:

Grandpa being killed by return fire.
The woman who was being held hostage could have been killed.
Any one or more members of the household could have been injured or killed by the gunfire.

See how there are many other possibilities here other than - they could have all been raped and murdered? You can't assume that there was only one other given option here. Even if grandpa opening fire was the right thing to do, even that had several other less than pleasant outcomes.
You are the one stuck with a single train of thought.

A close friend of mine's parent had their door kicked down and faced multiple armed home invaders.
They fully complied, showed them where all the valuables were and did nothing to escalate the situation.
The robbers, even though they were armed, took a kitchen knife and stabbed the old man over 70 times.
While he lay there bleeding out they raped his wife .... multiple times, then proceeded to beat her to within an inch of her life and left both for dead.

What you don't seem to (want to) understand is that killers will be killers irrespective of the weapons they use.
Does a gun make it easier to kill - in the right hands certainly but it also gives a well trained person a fighting chance to equalize a scenario with multiple assailants.

Yes, guns are designed to kill but only as a tool to be used by people for good or evil.

That last part is the important bit : "by people" --> the person effecting the weapon is the problem, not the tool at hand.

So while you are fixated on another gun stolen to be used to kill someone; there are lives saved here (in more ways than one - have you lived with a rape survivor? they are scarred for life) which you are completely ignoring.

You are also negating all the times armed persons prevent/negate/de-escalate lethal situations but those stats are not recorded so let's just completely ignore those too hey.

I hope you have a sign in front of your house that says - no guns here, we will fully comply with any treat or demands and place our lives in your hands.
 

Zoomzoom

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You are the one stuck with a single train of thought.

A close friend of mine's parent had their door kicked down and faced multiple armed home invaders.
They fully complied, showed them where all the valuables were and did nothing to escalate the situation.
The robbers, even though they were armed, took a kitchen knife and stabbed the old man over 70 times.
While he lay there bleeding out they raped his wife .... multiple times, then proceeded to beat her to within an inch of her life and left both for dead.

What you don't seem to (want to) understand is that killers will be killers irrespective of the weapons they use.
Does a gun make it easier to kill - in the right hands certainly but it also gives a well trained person a fighting chance to equalize a scenario with multiple assailants.

Yes, guns are designed to kill but only as a tool to be used by people for good or evil.

That last part is the important bit : "by people" --> the person effecting the weapon is the problem, not the tool at hand.

So while you are fixated on another gun stolen to be used to kill someone; there are lives saved here (in more ways than one - have you lived with a rape survivor? they are scarred for life) which you are completely ignoring.

You are also negating all the times armed persons prevent/negate/de-escalate lethal situations but those stats are not recorded so let's just completely ignore those too hey.

I hope you have a sign in front of your house that says - no guns here, we will fully comply with any treat or demands and place our lives in your hands.
You have your opinion and I have mine. Are there rare incidents where having a weapon has prevented a crime - sure, I can't argue with that point, but there are so many more incidents where it hasn't worked that way. You haul out your one or two examples to defend guns while ignoring the hundreds, if not thousands, of examples where the gun escalated things, or resulted in the death of the (former) gun owner, or enabled an angry abusive man to shoot his girlfriend through the bathroom door and claim he was shooting intruders ... the statistics are not on your side in this.
 

Ponderer

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You have your opinion and I have mine. Are there rare incidents where having a weapon has prevented a crime - sure, I can't argue with that point, but there are so many more incidents where it hasn't worked that way. You haul out your one or two examples to defend guns while ignoring the hundreds, if not thousands, of examples where the gun escalated things, or resulted in the death of the (former) gun owner, or enabled an angry abusive man to shoot his girlfriend through the bathroom door and claim he was shooting intruders ... the statistics are not on your side in this.
Do you think that a gun-free society will reduce violent crime?
Before you answer (which I doubt you will), consider the number of violent crimes that are committed with/using guns, and contrast it with the number of violent crimes that are committed with/using knives.

As to the "rare incidents where having a weapon has prevented a crime".
That is BS, and you know it.
Where did you come up with that sh*t?
 

OCP

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You have your opinion and I have mine. Are there rare incidents where having a weapon has prevented a crime - sure, I can't argue with that point, but there are so many more incidents where it hasn't worked that way. You haul out your one or two examples to defend guns while ignoring the hundreds, if not thousands, of examples where the gun escalated things, or resulted in the death of the (former) gun owner, or enabled an angry abusive man to shoot his girlfriend through the bathroom door and claim he was shooting intruders ... the statistics are not on your side in this.
You have no way to state statistics either way as they are not recorded accurately so there *is* no way of knowing incidents there are where guns saved lives.

What we do know is that licensed firearms losses are a very small percentage compared to what both the police and the military have lost.
I am sure i do not need to remind such a well informed person as yourself that when thousands of firearms were handed in they ended up not being destroyed but in the hands of criminals sold to them by the very people what are supposed to protect us.

You continued blaming the tool for being the reason for the murders is not just ignorant but plain stupid; until such time as all humanity has been cured of their violent behavior we will need tools to defend ourselves.

also, please don't bring Oscar into this - that half-man should not have had a firearm license in the first place (but that is an entirely separate argument)
 

ɹǝuuᴉM

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Dec 6, 2015
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But what you guys aren't mentioning or including in your assessment is how many times a robber took a gun and, now armed, used it to kill or wound the owner, because that also happens.

Nor are you considering other outcomes:

They took what they wanted and hitting granny was the worst of it.
They took what they wanted and raped the woman, but there was no shooting/killing.
Something else disturbed them and they fled.
The grandpa/kids in hiding pressed the panic button and the armed response showed up and they fled.

The worst outcome is only one of many possibilities.

Ditto for the outcome with grandpa opening fire. We have the given outcome - grandpa is shot in the leg, robbers fled with his gun (which btw means they got close enough to him after he was shot to pick up and didn't use it or their own guns to kill him). Other outcomes include:

Grandpa being killed by return fire.
The woman who was being held hostage could have been killed.
Any one or more members of the household could have been injured or killed by the gunfire.

See how there are many other possibilities here other than - they could have all been raped and murdered? You can't assume that there was only one other given option here. Even if grandpa opening fire was the right thing to do, even that had several other less than pleasant outcomes.
Sadly, in South Africa it is the most likely one. Live with it.
 
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