HELP! What are our legal rights as tenants?

[Oogie]

however on the next page it states that we must be off the premises by 11:30am on the date that the lease expires.

I also see that the deposit was not in an interest bearing account - *****. Already put down a deposit on the new place!

 

[Maelly]

Landlords and agencies, will they ever learn? I very much doubt it

 

[Shake&Bake]

Wait I just checked our existing lease - it does state that we must give 4 calendar months notice if we plan to leave when the contract expires... problem!

Downer - that's the crux of the matter - his referring to the previous contract which is coming to an end.

Well as of yet we have not paid the rent that is due this month - because we know he will most prob keep it because of this. Are we wrong in doing this? or should we just pay and hope for the best?

If you do leave without paying - you are still legally liable for the last months rent and three months after that if you have not given written notification.
If you up and disappear without paying, you can be held liable for loss of income up until the landlord finds a tenant. That could be more than three months.

I've been through a similar situation with my previous landlord.
I ended up leaving the deposit with him to cover the two month notice period and I'd been to the housing tribunal - there were more twists and turns in my story.
But it's coming down to the same thing:
Your contract states that there is a four month notice period and unfortunately it would seem you're liable for it.
Unless there's something in there which we don't know of.

I don't mean to be all doom and gloom, but just reacting on what info you have provided.

 

[Shake&Bake]

however on the next page it states that we must be off the premises by 11:30am on the date that the lease expires.

I also see that the deposit was not in an interest bearing account - *****. Already put down a deposit on the new place!

Now there are some interesting factoids which could work in your favour.
It's quite contradictory and not clear for the tenant as to what is required.

We could be going up and down with this all night

Why not give the Housing Tribunal a call? Or go to their offices with your contract and they will point you in the right direction.
It's a free service and they will inform you as to what your options are based on the contract and it's little contradictions.

For Cape Town the details are:
http://www.capegateway.gov.za/eng/directories/public_entities/4200/10906

DESCRIPTION:

The Rental Housing Tribunal provides a free service to tenants and landlords in the Western Cape. Its main function is dispute settlement between tenants and landlords. (Read more on how to do this.)
Formed in 2001, the Tribunal consists of five members (including a chair and vice chairperson), appointed by the Provincial Minister of Housing, who have expertise in property management, housing development and consumer matters pertaining to rental housing. The Tribunal is assisted by the Support Component of the Directorate Housing Settlement.

The Tribunal seeks to:

Harmonise relationships between landlords and tenants in the rental housing sector.
Resolve disputes that arise due to unfair practices.
Inform landlords and tenants about their rights and obligations in terms of the Rental Housing Act.
Make recommendations to relevant stakeholders.
Its objectives are:
To promote stability in the rental housing sector in the Western Cape.
To create mechanisms to deal with disputes in the rental housing sector.
To facilitate, investigate, mediate and conduct hearings to resolve disputes.
To inform landlords and tenants of their rights and obligations should unfair and unlawful practices arise.
Hearings and mediations are help as close to the point of complaint as possible.

MAIL:
sdewet@pgwc.gov.za
TELEPHONE:
086 010 6166
FAX:
021 483 2060
STREET ADDRESS:
Department of Housing, 27 Wale Street, Ground Floor, Cape Town
POSTAL ADDRESS:
The Western Cape Rental Housing Tribunal, Private Bag X9083, Cape Town, 8000
CONTACT PERSON:
Simone de Wet
OVERSEEING GOVERNMENT BODY:
Customer Relations and Communication (Department of Local Government and Housing, Provincial Government of the Western Cape)

 

[Waaib]

Landlords and agencies, will they ever learn? I very much doubt it

That's not fair. I've been a tenant and landlord more than once and 98% of the time it is a great relationship. 1% is bad communication and 1% is actual malicious intent.

 

[Oogie]

AFAIK their is not much more to it - other than plain stupidity for not reading everything 100% although we were always forced and rushed to do it - it's own fault.

We have not paid nor received a bil for the rates abd taxes over the past few years either. We only noticed that in the "new" contract after reading thru properly. Checked the previous and existing contracts I guess we liable for those periods to.

So if we wanna give 4 months notice how do we go about it? 0ne month left on old/existing contract... do we sign new one or what to do?

Not gonna give him money for nothing - would rather just stay then for 4 months and do things by the book -so to speak.

 

[DJ...]

They cannot tie you into a lease that has expired - simple as that, and they cannot force you to sign a new lease (unless of course this is all explicitly stated and you signed it). They also cannot force you to provide 4 month's notice for an expiring lease AFAIK - that is the landlord's responsibility. Why not scan the lease and post it here, removing all personal details? Does it explicitly state what will take place should 4 month's notice not be provided prior to the lease expiring?

 

[Waaib]

I reckon for the next 4 months you must pay. I'd also pay the one you owe immediately. For the new lease though if you want out simply refuse to accept the increase and he'll have to let you move out.

Edit:- Just a thought - 4 months is almost unheard of in terms of notice period. This landy has either had very bad luck and has been burnt before or treats people badly and gets burnt often.

 

[Shake&Bake]

AFAIK their is not much more to it - other than plain stupidity for not reading everything 100% although we were always forced and rushed to do it - it's own fault.

We have not paid nor received a bil for the rates abd taxes over the past few years either. We only noticed that in the "new" contract after reading thru properly. Checked the previous and existing contracts I guess we liable for those periods to.

So if we wanna give 4 months notice how do we go about it? 0ne month left on old/existing contract... do we sign new one or what to do?

Not gonna give him money for nothing - would rather just stay then for 4 months and do things by the book -so to speak.

Does it state in the old contract that you are liable for rates and taxes?
If not - you don't pay a fskcing cent to the landlord!
Also where are these bills?
I'd still say seek legal or free advice from the tribunal considering the "out by 11:30am on the day of expiry deal", before looking at going by the book.
By the book would then leave you:

• Giving written notice of intent to vacate the premises.
• Paying the last month on the contract.
• Then staying and paying for another three months.

But on that last point, it's damn important to take your time reading though a clause(s) relating to your stay after the termination of the lease period.
Is it on a month to month basis?
Are there any allowances for continuation of your stay at the premises if you give notice in the time period you're now faced with.
The "be out by 11:30am" bit is still contradicting the 4 month notice period in this case - from my view anyway.

Be out by 11:30am on the day of termination of lease, means just that in plain simple English.

Go to a tribunal or find a friend of a friend who works with these kind of things and be sure of what that specific clause means to you.

 

[DJ...]

There are some legal beagle ambulance chasing types on the forum who might find it in their "hearts" (or whatever they use to pump blood around their body) to feign kindness and have a squiz over your lease if you ask nicely...

 

[Shake&Bake]

Why not scan the lease and post it here, removing all personal details? Does it explicitly state what will take place should 4 month's notice not be provided prior to the lease expiring?

I'd also like to see it - if possible.
What Waaib also says is true - 4 months is really unheard of

 

[Waaib]

Does it state in the old contract that you are liable for rates and taxes?

The way I understand it the old lease DOES say this. It seems the new contract is a copy of the old with new dates and rates. I think there is a valid point to be made if it was never collected during the period of the lease though. I reckon an agreement should be reached on this point if this is the case 50/50 or something like that. I reckon it's the landlords responsibility to make sure the correct amount of rent is paid.

 

[Waaib]

There are some legal beagle ambulance chasing types on the forum who might find it in their "hearts" (or whatever they use to pump blood around their body) to feign kindness and have a squiz over your lease if you ask nicely...

What would a beagle do with an ambulance if it caught it?

 

[DJ...]

What would a beagle do with an ambulance if it caught it?

Sue it, more than likely...

 

[Oogie]

thanks guys - appreciate all this advice.

I will try post up the existing lease - if I can fiure it out.

Owner wants reply as ap- I dont want to be responsible for 4 months rent + legal fees etc etc .

Yes exixting contract is much the same...

 

[Frankie]

Just really go through your contract that you have signed.

Look at the clauses relating to the notice period you should be giving on that.
If it's 4 months on the original contract you have signed, then you're in for a bit of a pickle.
1 month's notice will then not suffice.

Also look for anything relating to you not renewing and what terms and conditions there are for either staying at the property on a month to month basis, or what the "exit clause". (terminology may be wrong there)
But there could be a few clauses that could still throw a spanner in the works.

Your concern in essence should not be for the unsigned contract, but rather for your one that has now "expired".

Please have a read through the old/original and let us know or even post the clause(s) here if you're up to typing it all

I think you have given the best advice here so far.

The other thing the OP should remember is that she is in breach of contract if she withholds rent in lieu of the deposit - you signed the contract that states clearly how the deposit is handled and that is to be used to cover any damages if any when you leave - if you left and there was damage the lessor would have no funds in hand to cover this.
He can also report you to the credit Bureau while you are in arrears as you say you are now.

If the new contract is not signed then the existing one remains in force - if the standard type lease agreement is used, then it likely has an annual increase and the details that at the end of the lease period it automatically reverts to a monthly bases with a notice period of typically one month, which appears to be four in your case.

Best to keep it above board, regardless of the lessor being a prick.

 

[Frankie]

My lease agreements have the lessor responsible for rates and body corporate levies, but the new lease has a new clause that the lessee will be responsible for any increase in rates and levies.

 

[guest2013-1]

thanks guys - appreciate all this advice.

I will try post up the existing lease - if I can fiure it out.

Owner wants reply by tonight though - I dont want to be responsible for 4 months rent + legal fees etc etc.

Yes exixting contract is much the same... Cant believe we must pay rates and raxes... and 3 years back log... gonna be a "nice bill"

He can't really force you to give him an answer by tonight. However, like I've said before. If the contract expires end of this month and you had to give him 4 months notice for the termination of the contract, he had to supply you with the new contract 4 months prior to give you enough time to make up your mind, give him the 4 months notice he requires and then leave.

Having said that, if he does want an answer by tonight, ask him about the "be out by 11:30am on the termination of this contract" clause.

I would say this is stock standard a contract for a period of years, that if terminated before the date of the contract expiry, you needed to give 4 months notice, but if the contract runs it's entire term without being renewed, that you need to be out of the premises by 31st January 2009.

He is using scare tactics to make you guys jump and make a bad decision again. And wtf is this with paying a deposit on a new place already when this isn't sorted out yet?! Na-A! BAD GIRL! no go to my room!

 

[Shake&Bake]

Also what is the deal with the deposit not being paid into a trust/interest bearing account?

 

[Frankie]

He can't really force you to give him an answer by tonight. However, like I've said before. If the contract expires end of this month and you had to give him 4 months notice for the termination of the contract, he had to supply you with the new contract 4 months prior to give you enough time to make up your mind, give him the 4 months notice he requires and then leave.

Having said that, if he does want an answer by tonight, ask him about the "be out by 11:30am on the termination of this contract" clause.

I would say this is stock standard a contract for a period of years, that if terminated before the date of the contract expiry, you needed to give 4 months notice, but if the contract runs it's entire term without being renewed, that you need to be out of the premises by 31st January 2009.

He is using scare tactics to make you guys jump and make a bad decision again. And wtf is this with paying a deposit on a new place already when this isn't sorted out yet?! Na-A! BAD GIRL! no go to my room!

This is not how the standard lease agreements work - if you terminate before the end of the lease period it would state the notice period and also that you may be liable for longer if they cannot find a tenant ASAP, and it's not a case of being out the premises on the last day of the lease period because the standard contracts automatically roll-over to a short term lease agreement with most of the conditions still binding.