Here’s what it’s like to be unable to visualize anything

[animal531]

Yeah, I'd imagine that working memory goes hand in hand with visualisation when you're pushing the imagery as far as possible.

Interestingly though, chimpanzees for example have far better working memory than us humans. Go watch the youtube videos of them memorising and repeating keypad/light patterns far faster and better than humans can.


I also think that consciousness acts as a limiter on your visualisation skills. I've had some lucid dreaming episodes where I'm only partially awake, and it often felt as if I was imagining far more elements far more clearly (and in better colour and sharpness) than during normal brain operation.

 

[SoulTax]

I have one of those hazy type of visualisation canvases. I always knew that some of my friends were full colour great detail types. While I have a fairly "sketchy" mind's eye. I attribute my lack of artistic expression to be associated with this. All through school, having people say, think of an image of a fruit bowl and draw it. I was always like..... but I just know what an apple looks like, I cant compose the picture in my mind and then transplant that to a canvas.
I am one step up from people who cannot visualise anything at all, but not very far up I dont think.

An interesting note. I find that I am a very logical person, but not very artistic. I wonder how many of the people here who have said they have zero or limited visualisation capabilities, would label themselves in a similar way?

 

[Ridolfc]

Can't even fap.

Kill me

No spank bank to keep a mental pic for later. LOL

 

[SoulTax]

I'm intrigued Thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't say the minds eye is crystal clear though. It can be "blurry or hazy" and the more detail is added the more difficult it is to hold the picture together without other things changing or dropping off. I guess it is somehow tied to a working memory that can only hold so many details simultaneously. For example in my minds eye right now I can visualize a standard rubiks cube and keep track of 2 sides of the same color - then make 2 moves, one from each side into a space I've not yet visualized a color (where it looks grey, white or neutral - a color my brain can easily group). Thereafter it fast becomes increasingly challenging to track where the colors have gone at move 3, 4, 5 until impossible. So the minds eye seems to be limited to working memory. Not sure if others will agree?

I've long had a "theory" that memories are not individually stored anywhere but are a recollection using existing sensory circuitry. That the brain somehow has a method of "compressing data" using triggers to parts of existing sensory circuitry for memory recall. I'd say visualization probably occurs using a series of memories and I'd not be surprised if the prefrontal cortex plays a big role there. Though that's not to discount other parts of the process as well. But take little note as my theories are usually wacky and based on no research

I can't help but wonder if you're very familiar with the concept of being present and aware at all times? Does your mind wander and if so to where?

Ye, I get that too. It is almost like target tracking. Like how they say that a fighter pilot can track x number of targets mentally. To do that you have to be able to visualise those targets and their trajectories, so that you can allow that information to play out in your mind. But add too many targets and you lose a previous one.

@R4ziel

I just had a thought, can you verify this for me.

So the background to this is that I have always been better than average at picking up a new sport, and progressing that sport. I remember in high school, we had our athletics trials and I had never done long jump before. I had done running and jumping over a gap obviously, but never the full long jump technique. I just realised that you might not presently be able to picture what I mean in a meaningful way, so youtube it or something.... Anyway.... The first time I did long jump, I kicked everyone's ass. I was not the fastest by a long shot. But I knew precisely how to execute the long jump technique to give myself more lift, hang-time and distance on the landing. I knew this because of watching the olympics and finding the technique interesting. So I would "visualise" myself performing that action over and over again. I essentially trained my muscles to perform the action, without actually physically doing the action. Same applied to hurdles.

This applies to almost any physical activity. I played beach volleyball for the first time at like 10, having never played anything similar in my life. I knew the spiking technique, how to hold my hands to hit the ball, most of those things.

I always attributed this, at least in part, to my ability to watch someone else doing something, and then be able to physically and mentally mimic them through visualization techniques.

So to put it bluntly. My question to you would be: How good were you/are you at picking up and or improving at a new sport or physical activity. Specifically ones that require very technical aspects that are apart from our everyday lives. So running and stuff is kind of excluded. Basically something that you cannot practice physically, unless you are at sports practice.


I know it is a very naive and conceited question and build up, I just needed to frame it with context I think. I have always thought that a person's prowess at a sport was a factor of both their physical conditioning and genetics, and their ability to visualise and practice their sport. And that some people might have great physical conditioning, but bad visualisation skills, and then be bad at sports. I just never EVER considered what it might mean if someone could not even visualise their practice at all.

If you come back and say you were/are great at sports, It might be a massive revelation to me.

 

[R4ziel]

Ye, I get that too. It is almost like target tracking. Like how they say that a fighter pilot can track x number of targets mentally. To do that you have to be able to visualise those targets and their trajectories, so that you can allow that information to play out in your mind. But add too many targets and you lose a previous one.

@R4ziel

I just had a thought, can you verify this for me.

So the background to this is that I have always been better than average at picking up a new sport, and progressing that sport. I remember in high school, we had our athletics trials and I had never done long jump before. I had done running and jumping over a gap obviously, but never the full long jump technique. I just realised that you might not presently be able to picture what I mean in a meaningful way, so youtube it or something.... Anyway.... The first time I did long jump, I kicked everyone's ass. I was not the fastest by a long shot. But I knew precisely how to execute the long jump technique to give myself more lift, hang-time and distance on the landing. I knew this because of watching the olympics and finding the technique interesting. So I would "visualise" myself performing that action over and over again. I essentially trained my muscles to perform the action, without actually physically doing the action. Same applied to hurdles.

This applies to almost any physical activity. I played beach volleyball for the first time at like 10, having never played anything similar in my life. I knew the spiking technique, how to hold my hands to hit the ball, most of those things.

I always attributed this, at least in part, to my ability to watch someone else doing something, and then be able to physically and mentally mimic them through visualization techniques.

So to put it bluntly. My question to you would be: How good were you/are you at picking up and or improving at a new sport or physical activity. Specifically ones that require very technical aspects that are apart from our everyday lives. So running and stuff is kind of excluded. Basically something that you cannot practice physically, unless you are at sports practice.


I know it is a very naive and conceited question and build up, I just needed to frame it with context I think. I have always thought that a person's prowess at a sport was a factor of both their physical conditioning and genetics, and their ability to visualise and practice their sport. And that some people might have great physical conditioning, but bad visualisation skills, and then be bad at sports. I just never EVER considered what it might mean if someone could not even visualise their practice at all.

If you come back and say you were/are great at sports, It might be a massive revelation to me.

Hey dude, I have to apologize for only getting back to this topic now, my life has been hell the last couple of months, some of it relating to Aphantasia. In the beginning I didn't want to stop talking about it with anyone who would listen, and then I started realizing alot more things that I wasnt able to experience and this lead to a major depression for me, I had to deal with so many things at once I had to get professional help. It was rough.

Anyway I love your question because I think you will enjoy my answer. Ill start off with saying Im not good at sports, well not the normal sports anyway. I tried rugby in primary school, but I could never grasp the concept of where people are going or whats going on in a match which is a result of aphantasia. I knew where everyone was at any point in time because my mind would "track" them automatically, but I had no idea where they were going. Cricket I tried, batting was easy, everything else I sucked at. Tennis I was decent but couldn't get some of the techniques down and didnt get very far.

So I started skateboarding just after i tried tennis, and this I picked up almost instantly, and this is where I would relate to your question. I didnt have to actually try any tricks to understand the movements I have to do, I would know in a technical detail kindof fassion what would need to happen in order and do that, and that worked so well I ended up being sponsored and doing events. One thing I never realized but talking to a psychiatrist is that I am good at adventure sports because I dont know I should be afraid. Yep, you read that right. Everyone else that skateboards is afraid of falling and they can see themselves getting hurt. For me it was a surprise everytime I ate dirt because I didnt expect it, I did everything right.

I am currently playing paintball and will be doing league next year, but that as well is a technical game of shoot here, here, here and then here and thats probably the round won. So sports without too much visualization that you need to do I can do, where I can wing it.

Athletics I totally sucked at, the techniques needed I cant even attempt to grasp. I watched a video about the longjump technique and holy crap I don't know how they do that. Any athletics stuff completely goes over my head because I cant visualize what needs to be done.

Also away from sports, I can do pretty much anything if someone shows me how to do it first. I will remember the procedure he followed and replicate that. But if I have to do it first I cant figure it out most of the time if it takes some creativity.

A couple of other points Ive experienced in the last while for everyone interested :

* I never realized I couldn't smell properly, and If I smell something I cant remember anything a second later. So sense of smell for me is a no go
* I don't know how to interpret emotions, sometimes I would feel stupidly excited about something but it would be anger im feeling. I also have no idea how to distinguish between the two.
* Ive got a certain numbness to life, nothing puts me off or disturbs me because the visual and auditory parts of it doesn't stay with me.
* What I thought were dreams are definitely not, im in a semi awake state and its just thoughts my brain is trying to remember. I dont dream at all


Its weird finding out random things like this you never thought of or take for granted. I was at the Vet with my kitty recently and I had him in a cat pack in front of me and the lady asked me what he looks like, I had to take him out to show her cause I had no idea what he looked like.

 

[Xarog]

Wow dude. Better off knowing though, right?

 

[R4ziel]

Wow dude. Better off knowing though, right?

When I found out I found it amazingly interesting. But after the last couple of months having to deal with alot of stuff regarding this I would prefer not to have known.

I dont share this article with people any more for fear that they would also have aphantasia, and it would do the same to them to find out.

So no, I'd prefer not to know

 

[Xarog]

I'm intrigued Thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't say the minds eye is crystal clear though. It can be "blurry or hazy" and the more detail is added the more difficult it is to hold the picture together without other things changing or dropping off. I guess it is somehow tied to a working memory that can only hold so many details simultaneously. For example in my minds eye right now I can visualize a standard rubiks cube and keep track of 2 sides of the same color - then make 2 moves, one from each side into a space I've not yet visualized a color (where it looks grey, white or neutral - a color my brain can easily group). Thereafter it fast becomes increasingly challenging to track where the colors have gone at move 3, 4, 5 until impossible. So the minds eye seems to be limited to working memory. Not sure if others will agree?

I've long had a "theory" that memories are not individually stored anywhere but are a recollection using existing sensory circuitry. That the brain somehow has a method of "compressing data" using triggers to parts of existing sensory circuitry for memory recall. I'd say visualization probably occurs using a series of memories and I'd not be surprised if the prefrontal cortex plays a big role there. Though that's not to discount other parts of the process as well. But take little note as my theories are usually wacky and based on no research

I can't help but wonder if you're very familiar with the concept of being present and aware at all times? Does your mind wander and if so to where?

[video=youtube_share;1EqgeMfJ_rE]https://youtu.be/1EqgeMfJ_rE?t=145[/video]

We can all feel like R4ziel for a bit by watching this.

 

[Lupus]

When I found out I found it amazingly interesting. But after the last couple of months having to deal with alot of stuff regarding this I would prefer not to have known.

I dont share this article with people any more for fear that they would also have aphantasia, and it would do the same to them to find out.

So no, I'd prefer not to know

That's horrible, sorry man. At least now you've got some answers and could try possibly finding away to solve them?

 

[Willy Strong]

Wow OP almost destroyed your life R4ziel. :wtf:

 

[R4ziel]

Wow OP almost destroyed your life R4ziel. :wtf:

I don't think what was the OP's intention, but the timing of me finding the article was also a very rough time for me as it already felt like I lost everything and this article along with the discovery just pushed me over an edge I was teetering on for a very long time.

I have made peace with it though and have found ways that I do things differently so i'm celebrating the differences rather than focusing on them which helps.

 

[SoulTax]

Hey dude, I have to apologize for only getting back to this topic now, my life has been hell the last couple of months, some of it relating to Aphantasia. In the beginning I didn't want to stop talking about it with anyone who would listen, and then I started realizing alot more things that I wasnt able to experience and this lead to a major depression for me, I had to deal with so many things at once I had to get professional help. It was rough.

Anyway I love your question because I think you will enjoy my answer. Ill start off with saying Im not good at sports, well not the normal sports anyway. I tried rugby in primary school, but I could never grasp the concept of where people are going or whats going on in a match which is a result of aphantasia. I knew where everyone was at any point in time because my mind would "track" them automatically, but I had no idea where they were going. Cricket I tried, batting was easy, everything else I sucked at. Tennis I was decent but couldn't get some of the techniques down and didnt get very far.

So I started skateboarding just after i tried tennis, and this I picked up almost instantly, and this is where I would relate to your question. I didnt have to actually try any tricks to understand the movements I have to do, I would know in a technical detail kindof fassion what would need to happen in order and do that, and that worked so well I ended up being sponsored and doing events. One thing I never realized but talking to a psychiatrist is that I am good at adventure sports because I dont know I should be afraid. Yep, you read that right. Everyone else that skateboards is afraid of falling and they can see themselves getting hurt. For me it was a surprise everytime I ate dirt because I didnt expect it, I did everything right.

I am currently playing paintball and will be doing league next year, but that as well is a technical game of shoot here, here, here and then here and thats probably the round won. So sports without too much visualization that you need to do I can do, where I can wing it.

Athletics I totally sucked at, the techniques needed I cant even attempt to grasp. I watched a video about the longjump technique and holy crap I don't know how they do that. Any athletics stuff completely goes over my head because I cant visualize what needs to be done.

Also away from sports, I can do pretty much anything if someone shows me how to do it first. I will remember the procedure he followed and replicate that. But if I have to do it first I cant figure it out most of the time if it takes some creativity.

A couple of other points Ive experienced in the last while for everyone interested :

* I never realized I couldn't smell properly, and If I smell something I cant remember anything a second later. So sense of smell for me is a no go
* I don't know how to interpret emotions, sometimes I would feel stupidly excited about something but it would be anger im feeling. I also have no idea how to distinguish between the two.
* Ive got a certain numbness to life, nothing puts me off or disturbs me because the visual and auditory parts of it doesn't stay with me.
* What I thought were dreams are definitely not, im in a semi awake state and its just thoughts my brain is trying to remember. I dont dream at all


Its weird finding out random things like this you never thought of or take for granted. I was at the Vet with my kitty recently and I had him in a cat pack in front of me and the lady asked me what he looks like, I had to take him out to show her cause I had no idea what he looked like.

Glad you are okay though. Well as much as your post seems to convey. No problem at all on not replying. I actually thought I had overstepped or something. I am still amazed at the idea of Aphantasia. Thanks for the info and I hope you are in a better place/state of mind now. Revelations about yourself can sometimes be very overwhelming.

 

[R4ziel]

Glad you are okay though. Well as much as your post seems to convey. No problem at all on not replying. I actually thought I had overstepped or something. I am still amazed at the idea of Aphantasia. Thanks for the info and I hope you are in a better place/state of mind now. Revelations about yourself can sometimes be very overwhelming.

Its been a very overwhelming and interesting discovery of the way the world works yes, but I would like to think that I am better off for is as i am now able to explain a great deal of things about myself that never made the slightest bit of sense.

Just as a side note, if anyone ever discovers this about themselves and need someone like minded to chat to feel free to PM me or mail me at r4ziel@crak.za.net , Ill definitely be there to chat if some things are a bit unclear. I dont always come back to this post so if you need to know something or have something explained feel free to ask. I know it almost sent me off the rails because no one understood.

Also, for people who want to know more, have a look at this forum for aphantasians, alot of interesting things on there as well. http://aphant.asia/forum/index