How close is South Africa to being fully dysfunctional?

[BandwidthAddict]

We are still in denial I see but only a clueless idiot would claim that Apartheid policies did not muck up our society.

Tibby, dude, please enlighten me. What apartheid policies caused this mess? Please be specific, show proof that the current problems are directly related to those policies and not anything else, also how everything would be peachy without them. I really want to know; I will never shy away from reality.

If you can't, then please refrain from calling me a clueless idiot as you don't know the first thing about me or my abilities.

 

[Xarog]

Tibby, dude, please enlighten me. What apartheid policies caused this mess? Please be specific, show proof that the current problems are directly related to those policies and not anything else, also how everything would be peachy without them. I really want to know; I will never shy away from reality.

If you can't, then please refrain from calling me a clueless idiot as you don't know the first thing about me or my abilities.

Exhibit A : The Apartheid regime deined black people the opportunity to participate in politics and in doing so denied them the opportunity to learn how the system worked.

 

[Skeptik]

The ANC inherited a system where the previous regime was so convinced that it was all going to hell that they didn't bother spending money on the upkeep of the infrastructure. Add to this that the ANC had no previous experience in governing a country, and through their own stupidity kicked out everyone who did... Well, I can see how things got to be as bad as they were.

Disagree. The previous regime spent a lot on upkeep and infrastructure. Some may say to the detriment of the majority.

It seems to be African tradition not to spend money on maintenance. Just look at every other African country and you will see the same mistake.

If the ANC were inept, then they clearly also were/are deaf, because the opposition parties have constantly offered advice and tried to set them on the correct path.

Recently our African neighbours also gave the ANC advice through the Peer Review Mechanism. The ANC reacted by refusing to accept many of the recommendations and even tried to keep the report a secret.

 

[RichardP]

Power Corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

 

[Xarog]

Disagree. The previous regime spent a lot on upkeep and infrastructure. Some may say to the detriment of the majority.

Not in the final years of their power. Let's say 1990 and onwards. Some things such as the power grid were neglected long before the ANC got anywhere near them.

It seems to be African tradition not to spend money on maintenance. Just look at every other African country and you will see the same mistake.

If the ANC were inept, then they clearly also were/are deaf, because the opposition parties have constantly offered advice and tried to set them on the correct path.

Yeah, we all know how the opposition parties just want to help the ANC, I mean, it's not like they want to be in power themselves, right?

Recently our African neighbours also gave the ANC advice through the Peer Review Mechanism. The ANC reacted by refusing to accept many of the recommendations and even tried to keep the report a secret.

To be expected from politicians. Show me a politician who didn't try and hide it when he got egg on his face and I'll eat a sunday newspaper.

 

[Skeptik]

Exhibit A : The Apartheid regime deined black people the opportunity to participate in politics and in doing so denied them the opportunity to learn how the system worked.

Disagree.
Mandela was a lawyer. He also spent considerable time (in and out of prison) figuring out how to respond to the racial politics of the day. I doubt very much that we can say he "didn't know the system". I would say he was an expert - he had to be.

In fact, in prison, Mandela and his colleagues had their own political system.

 

[Xarog]

Disagree.
Mandela was a lawyer. He also spent considerable time (in and out of prison) figuring out how to respond to the racial politics of the day. I doubt very much that we can say he "didn't know the system". I would say he was an expert - he had to be.

In fact, in prison, Mandela and his colleagues had their own political system.

What's that got to do with the logistics of running a country? Does politics teach you what's neccessary to keep a powergrid running? I think not.

 

[The_Right_Honourable_Brit]

Not in the final years of their power. Let's say 1990 and onwards. Some things such as the power grid were neglected long before the ANC got anywhere near them.

BS. Everyone knows how much the ANC has prevented Eskom from building extra power stations etc because the ANC are interested in self-enrichment. The ANC has done absolutely nothing in building new dams in the WC and we're going to have a severe water shortage if this is not rectified.

Yeah, we all know how the opposition parties just want to help the ANC, I mean, it's not like they want to be in power themselves, right?

Well since some solutions are simple, I don't think opposition parties need to give them advice. One example is education. Instead of paying teachers better salaries, building new schools, improving govt. school infrastructure they mess around in implementing a new, dumbed down curriculum so that the pass rate can magically go up while forcing universities to have their own entrance exams.

 

[bekdik]

Indeed. MY point was simply that if they had kept up the maintenance side of things, the ANC might have had a better idea of how to go about keeping the stuff operational.

And I suspect that most of the things to which you allude were state run, where the main objective was NOT large dividends. To get large dividends one has to improve profits and the easiest way to do this is to cut costs. Easiest way to cut costs is not to spend and to get rid of staff.

 

[Debbie]

Disagree. The previous regime spent a lot on upkeep and infrastructure. Some may say to the detriment of the majority.

From my perspective, it is true that the previous regime spent a lot of money on upkeep and infrastructure. It is also true that when it became clear that power would be handed over, the Nats - some say deliberately- allowed a number of things to fall into disrepair. The civil service was plundered, and then handed over to the ANC, who've taken it to new levels of disrepair.

 

[Xarog]

BS. Everyone knows how much the ANC has prevented Eskom from building extra power stations etc because the ANC are interested in self-enrichment. The ANC has done absolutely nothing in building new dams in the WC and we're going to have a severe water shortage if this is not rectified.

And again, if the Apartheid regime was spending money on development and upkeep and that was actually part of the budget, then maybe the ANC would have been able to learn from it.

Well since some solutions are simple, I don't think opposition parties need to give them advice. One example is education. Instead of paying teachers better salaries, building new schools, improving govt. school infrastructure they mess around in implementing a new, dumbed down curriculum so that the pass rate can magically go up while forcing universities to have their own entrance exams.

I'm not saying they're faultless - not by a long shot. Kicking out the white civil servants is an excellent example of the stupidity of the ANC.

And I suspect that most of the things to which you allude were state run, where the main objective was NOT large dividends. To get large dividends one has to improve profits and the easiest way to do this is to cut costs. Easiest way to cut costs is not to spend and to get rid of staff.

Right - but what's your point? I don't see how what you're saying has any effect on the point I was making.

From my perspective, it is true that the previous regime spent a lot of money on upkeep and infrastructure. It is also true that when it became clear that power would be handed over, the Nats - some say deliberately- allowed a number of things to fall into disrepair. The civil service was plundered, and then handed over to the ANC, who've taken it to new levels of disrepair.

Exactly.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

Exhibit A : The Apartheid regime deined black people the opportunity to participate in politics and in doing so denied them the opportunity to learn how the system worked.

Ok, then I have a question for you: Why is it that the black ppl do not acknowledge their ignorance and say "We don't know how the system works, please teach us"?

Learning a system of politics is not something like learning how to ride a bike. When you crash in politics, it takes the whole country down. When you say that the apartheid system denied ppl from participating in politics, perhaps it is because the framers of that system feared this exact outcome?

I would say that the framers of apartheid could not see a way to educate the black ppl in the culture of democracy when tribal politics are so entrenched. When the primitive tribal system is purged from black culture, and the members of that culture want to learn how to implement the democratic way, then we will see how well this country fares; I would say that we would become one heck of a strong nation then and the true rainbow dream will be realised.

Peace.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

And again, if the Apartheid regime was spending money on development and upkeep and that was actually part of the budget, then maybe the ANC would have been able to learn from it.

I would really like to know how much of this is true. Do you have references?

Besides, it has been more than 12 years, you would think that they would have learned by now? How long does it take to learn the ropes if you are WILLING to learn? The kicking out of white civil servants is a clue to the attitude of the ANC, and that, more than anything, is the reason for SAs decline.

Learning only happens when you realise that there is something to learn and you are willing to learn it.

Peace.

 

[RichardP]

Ok, then I have a question for you: Why is it that the black ppl do not acknowledge their ignorance and say "We don't know how the system works, please teach us"?

Learning a system of politics is not something like learning how to ride a bike. When you crash in politics, it takes the whole country down. When you say that the apartheid system denied ppl from participating in politics, perhaps it is because the framers of that system feared this exact outcome?

I would say that the framers of apartheid could not see a way to educate the black ppl in the culture of democracy when tribal politics are so entrenched. When the primitive tribal system is purged from black culture, and the members of that culture want to learn how to implement the democratic way, then we will see how well this country fares; I would say that we would become one heck of a strong nation then and the true rainbow dream will be realised.

Peace.

LOL! ... My daughter is 5yrs old, and one of the Subjects on her UK schooling curriculum is 'Political Science : Democracy - how it works'

 

[BandwidthAddict]

LOL! ... My daughter is 5yrs old, and one of the Subjects on her UK schooling curriculum is 'Political Science : Democracy - how it works'

That only works for children, it is indoctrination into the system with all the good and bad it entails. That, however, does not work for adults. They must choose their path in life and then seek the information to support that path.

Our problem today is adults who believe that such education is a white conspiracy to destroy black culture and therein is a grain of truth, it is an attempt to destroy a part of that culture, the part that is incompatible with democracy but these adults dismiss it entirely because they do not see a need for changing their system, they want democracy to adapt to theirs but that is not going to happen because the two are mutually exclusive; one, or the other, will survive this conflict. If tribalism wins, well, we have seen how that plays out.

Peace.

 

[froggytoo]

. If tribalism wins, well, we have seen how that plays out.

Peace.

Interesting remark. Looking at Africa: Any hope?

 

[froggytoo]

LOL! ... My daughter is 5yrs old, and one of the Subjects on her UK schooling curriculum is 'Political Science : Democracy - how it works'

That must be in the civilised world with a real democracy.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

That must be in the civilised world with a real democracy.

Foggytoo, RichardP lives in the UK.

 

[antowan]

We are still in denial I see but only a clueless idiot would claim that Apartheid policies did not muck up our society.

Well, Tibby.dude it is entirely possible that without Apartheid things could well have been different, but how different? What kind of developmental state would we have had? If we can accurately determine this, then the debate will be interesting. Would we all have been better off without Apartheid? Or would we perhaps be a little more free, but a little more poor?

I guess freedom is more important than money and personally would never sanction somebody to live seperate from me and make it impossible for him or her to excell or at least have the chance to excell. It is wrong.

The reality however is that it would be foolish to simply assume the country would have been better off in terms of infrastructure development etc without Apartheid. We need to think about this clearly. This would also affect the validity of BEE etc. What country in a similar condition would you use as an example to the contrary? Zimbabwe? Namibia? Angola?

 

[Xarog]

Ok, then I have a question for you: Why is it that the black ppl do not acknowledge their ignorance and say "We don't know how the system works, please teach us"?

I'm not sure.

Learning a system of politics is not something like learning how to ride a bike. When you crash in politics, it takes the whole country down. When you say that the apartheid system denied ppl from participating in politics, perhaps it is because the framers of that system feared this exact outcome?

No, they did it because they were racist idiots.

I would say that the framers of apartheid could not see a way to educate the black ppl in the culture of democracy when tribal politics are so entrenched.

And you would be wrong. Infact they did their best to dumb the masses down with the Bantu Education Act.

When the primitive tribal system is purged from black culture,

I don't believe so. Tribalism affects how people feel about each other, not how well they work at doing their jobs. You seem to be confusing the people who decide policies with the people that actually implement them.

and the members of that culture want to learn how to implement the democratic way,

Rhetoric.

then we will see how well this country fares; I would say that we would become one heck of a strong nation then and the true rainbow dream will be realised.

I still have hope for this country. I fear, however, that those who were oppressed learned well from their former tyrants - only that they were the wrong lessons.

I would really like to know how much of this is true. Do you have references?

I don't, sorry. This is from stuff I've read in newspapers over the years.

Besides, it has been more than 12 years, you would think that they would have learned by now? How long does it take to learn the ropes if you are WILLING to learn? The kicking out of white civil servants is a clue to the attitude of the ANC, and that, more than anything, is the reason for SAs decline.

This is where I disagree. Yes, the ANC's arrogance is partly to blame for the mess we're in, but it is not the *only* thing to blame.

Learning only happens when you realise that there is something to learn and you are willing to learn it.

Peace.

True.

Well, Tibby.dude it is entirely possible that without Apartheid things could well have been different, but how different? What kind of developmental state would we have had? If we can accurately determine this, then the debate will be interesting. Would we all have been better off without Apartheid? Or would we perhaps be a little more free, but a little more poor?

I guess freedom is more important than money and personally would never sanction somebody to live seperate from me and make it impossible for him or her to excell or at least have the chance to excell. It is wrong.

The reality however is that it would be foolish to simply assume the country would have been better off in terms of infrastructure development etc without Apartheid. We need to think about this clearly. This would also affect the validity of BEE etc. What country in a similar condition would you use as an example to the contrary? Zimbabwe? Namibia? Angola?

Pity the fact that the white regime was mainly interested in uplifting whites (especially Afrikaners) rather than South Africa as a whole. A wise ruling body would have eased the majority into elections, while grooming their favoured candidates for the roles they would assume.

I mean, imagine if after the 2nd world war, the government decided to unban black political parties with the provisor that they could participate in general elections within 20 years, while in the meantime they started educating a black workforce and also holding 'mock' elections in which the black majority decided to leaders they wanted to be trained in the way of managing a country?