How to get a firearm licence in South Africa - and the battle against new gun laws

SoldierMan said:
If you stick to the rules that we all learn there will be no accidents.

Expand a little further on what you mean by accidental death. What are your concerns.
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I think it's not that I expect myself not to make a mistake, it that I don't trust myself 100% not to make a mistake. Not sure if I can spend the time necessary to become fully comfortable with lethal firearms.
 
[XC] Oj101 said:
You want to throw pepper balls at a group of 3-5 guys throwing lead in your direction?
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If 3 hardened criminals are throwing lead in my direction, I don't think my civilized ass stands a chance anyway.

Maybe with pepper balls, I can deny them the battlefield with my inaccurate and desperate fire. that and the significant smell coming from my pants.
 
zolly said:
A gun's sole purpose is for killing (guns weren't invented for sport shooting, before someone brings that up), or the threat of killing.



A bike has utility in that it can get you places. Apple products serve whatever their intended purpose.

Knives are similar to guns in that they can be very dangerous but they also have utility, such as in the kitchen or workshop. Few things can kill someone as quickly as a gun can, and they simply have no utility beyond their intended purpose. I can't use a gun to make a sandwich for example.
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If I may offer you some some change of perspective:)

1) You've separated the utility of those other items from the by-effects of their utility. A bike gets you places...and the by-effect is that it emits harmful pollution and exposes the operator to the chance of death. Why not do the same for a gun? The utility of a gun is that it can stop multiple targets, at a distance, quickly, reliably and with no great physical strength from the operator and no compliance needed from the target. That is the intended purpose of every handgun on the civilian market. That's the utility for which consumers buy them. The by-effect of such a utility is that the target can be killed. Invent any tool that fills this mandate and it, too, will be lethal. That's simply the way humans and physics work. Which brings me on to my next point...

2) Consider this - you've attached a stigma to the utility of a gun, because its rather good at killing. Why? The free world is built on the shoulders of people who killed when the time called for it. Sure, we can try to hide that fact away in our airconditioned offices and glass-walled skyscrapers and online shopping and boardroom meetings, but imagine a world where killing was impossible. Whichever group of people was physically strongest and had the most numbers would be invincible and rule over everyone else! Killing is by no means a black and white, universally good or bad thing. You may disagree with this, but...

3) If killing is simply a one-dimensional thing that is never good and never right and must be stigmatized, then the outcome of killing is all that matters, yes? In which case, why assign any importance to the tool with which it's achieved? After all, we aren't looking at intent and principle, or the context in which it happened. Killing is killing. Dead is dead. All that matters is whether or not an object is actually used for killing in the real-world. Of the hundreds of millions of rounds fired every year around the world by civilians, almost all hit a piece of paper or steel. The percentage of innocent humans harmed/killed is so tiny that you'd have to move over several decimal places to avoid rounding to zero. If we're concerned about outcomes, then the outcome of gun usage in the real world barely ever involves killing.

The reason I typed all of this is because I noticed you mentioned you're looking at getting a gun. The "intended purpose" argument is a form of emotional blackmail that the anti-gun lobby has been punting for years - if you are in favour of gun ownership, then you must be a bad person because killing is bad. If you're going to get armed, it's important to understand the true purpose of the tool you're buying and the reason you're pointing it at a threat. Not to "kill". But to stop the threat to protect yourself. The threat might be killed in the process, which is not the same thing as you setting out with the sole purpose of killing them. It's important to come to terms with this before becoming a gun owner, because you really don't want to be contemplating all of this when it's time to actually draw on an attacker.
 
Sapphiron said:
I think it's not that I expect myself not to make a mistake, it that I don't trust myself 100% not to make a mistake. Not sure if I can spend the time necessary to become fully comfortable with lethal firearms.
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Your best bet is to go through a course that teaches you the ins and outs of firearms. Not only how to shoot, but how the gun works, the 4 rules of gun safety, etc.

Plenty people feel insecure around owning a firearm at first but once they understand how they work, know that it will only go off if you pull the trigger and is otherwise an inert object, the fear soon goes away and is replaced with caution and respect.

Some of this is dealt with when you do your Proficiency tests. But having a professional teach you the fundamentals would be a very good idea.

Edit: Let me just add, responsible gun owners like myself always keep the 4 fundamental rules of safety in mind when handling firearms, it becomes second nature because of what a firearm is, and that way there is very little chance that something could go wrong.

Here they are:

1. Always treat every gun as if it were loaded.
2. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

If you follow these rules and teach others the same your firearm will soon become something you are happy to carry on you.
These are the kinds of things you will learn when doing your Proficiency tests and doing a course with an instructor.
 
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Sapphiron said:
For the first time in my life, I am considering a firearm for self defence, but I am terrified of the accidental death aspect.

Any thoughts on less lethal options like pepper ball guns. The ones that look close enough to chase away a knife armed opponent and will give you a fighting chance against a group of home invaders/looters
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I wrote some articles that might help you think this through.

First of all regardless of whether you decide to get a firearm, you need to understand the realities and basic principles of self defence https://selfreliance.co.za/basic-principles-of-self-defence/. Many people just recoil from the idea that anything bad could ever happen to them, and then try pretend it will never happen, or it only happens to other people who somehow did something wrong. Or they might think that it's someone else's responsibility to save them from harm. But the harsh reality is there are bad people all around us, and if you are unlucky enough to ever be attacked - it will most likely be when there is no-one else around to help, so it's ultimately almost always up to you to defend yourself and your family. Even in "safe" countries and neighbourhoods - this is true.

The next point to understand is that criminals and thugs seldom attack on their own, and they do that for a living, so they often get quite good at it. So what chances do you have with your bare hands? The odds are heavily against you, unless you have training and are practiced in unarmed fighting. So if you want to actually stand a decent chance, defending yourself, you need some sort of weapon to even the odds. This is obviously especially true if you are smaller framed and not that strong and tough etc https://selfreliance.co.za/choosing-a-weapon-for-self-defence/

Non lethal weapons, might help in casual attacks, but they might not. In general, my opinion is while having some sort of weapon is better than nothing, non lethal weapons might actually make things worse. For eg, if it's a casual robbery and the guys would have just taken your stuff and then left and your family alone, but then you go and shoot them with a pepper ball. Well that would do nothing to actually stop them, and now they are sore and pissed off. So what do you think happens next? Pulling out something that looks like a gun, sounds like a gun, but isn't is just a good way to get killed IMO.

Lastly here are some specific thoughts about getting a gun for self defence. I cover the responsibility and safety aspects (as I consider them) which might be helpful? https://selfreliance.co.za/introduction-to-firearms-for-ordinary-people/
 
Sadly, I wouldn't mind owning a fire arm but am terrified of my kids getting a hold of it and before folks say a safe, remember it did no good there and you might as well not have if it's going to sit there all the time.

It takes but one slip. I grew up with a firearm around but also respected it, I dunno about my kids. I may lean towards a large knife rather.
 
Kosmik said:
Sadly, I wouldn't mind owning a fire arm but am terrified of my kids getting a hold of it and before folks say a safe, remember it did no good there and you might as well not have if it's going to sit there all the time.
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Dunno about that chief. That week in KZN I saw a ****ton of guns that were seeing the first light of day in more than a few years.
 
Kosmik said:
Sadly, I wouldn't mind owning a fire arm but am terrified of my kids getting a hold of it and before folks say a safe, remember it did no good there and you might as well not have if it's going to sit there all the time.

It takes but one slip. I grew up with a firearm around but also respected it, I dunno about my kids. I may lean towards a large knife rather.
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Mine is on my hip, or in the safe. No way for the little one to get hold of it.
The law is clear on this. It must be under your direct control, or in a safe.
 
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So only people that have businesses can do self defense?

Huh, most of us legal owners are on the wrong side of the law?

Huh
 
Kosmik said:
Sadly, I wouldn't mind owning a fire arm but am terrified of my kids getting a hold of it and before folks say a safe, remember it did no good there and you might as well not have if it's going to sit there all the time.

It takes but one slip. I grew up with a firearm around but also respected it, I dunno about my kids. I may lean towards a large knife rather.
Click to expand...
A knife is the next best thing to a firearm IMO - but - you need to get right up close and personal, which means against multiple attackers, you cannot maintain any sort of gap, which means that you are probably going to lose in those situations, simply because you can't really stop them all jumping on top of you at once. Plus not having your knife taken off you by a stronger bigger attacker, will require a fair degree of training and practice in wrestling etc skills.

But if you have nothing else and its life or death...many people have successfully defended themselves and families that way.

My self defence instructor encourages everyone, but especially women, to carry a small folding knife on them, and to know how to use it. This is especially true because women are more often attacked by a single attacker than men, so a knife might make all the difference then.

As far as risk to children from firearms is concerned - you need to take your responsibility seriously to make sure that you do not leave the gun lying around, which does become second nature, as well as train your children how to treat firearms.

Many of us grew up safely around guns. It's not impossible.

If you want a firearm for home defence, then there is nothing wrong with it spending most of its time in the safe IMO. Provided the safe is close to your bed, so you can reach it quickly.
 
zolly said:
A gun's sole purpose is for killing (guns weren't invented for sport shooting, before someone brings that up), or the threat of killing.



A bike has utility in that it can get you places. Apple products serve whatever their intended purpose.

Knives are similar to guns in that they can be very dangerous but they also have utility, such as in the kitchen or workshop. Few things can kill someone as quickly as a gun can, and they simply have no utility beyond their intended purpose. I can't use a gun to make a sandwich for example.
Click to expand...
No "gun" ever crawled out of the safe, and killed anyone of it's own accord. People kill people, with whatever they have at hand. A very small percentage of those are fire-arms. More people die from knives, and broken bottles. But who cares.
 
alanB said:
A knife is the next best thing to a firearm IMO - but - you need to get right up close and personal, which means against multiple attackers, you cannot maintain any sort of gap, which means that you are probably going to lose in those situations, simply because you can't really stop them all jumping on top of you at once. Plus not having your knife taken off you by a stronger bigger attacker, will require a fair degree of training and practice in wrestling etc skills.

But if you have nothing else and its life or death...many people have successfully defended themselves and families that way.

My self defence instructor encourages everyone, but especially women, to carry a small folding knife on them, and to know how to use it. This is especially true because women are more often attacked by a single attacker than men, so a knife might make all the difference then.

As far as risk to children from firearms is concerned - you need to take your responsibility seriously to make sure that you do not leave the gun lying around, which does become second nature, as well as train your children how to treat firearms.

Many of us grew up safely around guns. It's not impossible.

If you want a firearm for home defence, then there is nothing wrong with it spending most of its time in the safe IMO. Provided the safe is close to your bed, so you can reach it quickly.
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A firearm is useless in a safe. It should be readily available for use, always.

WRT your children (dependent on age) and your wife/partner: they should also be taught to respect and be familiar with the safe handling of a firearm - chances are that YOU will be the primary target in a home invasion and they should be able to ward off any attack whilst you are injured/incapacitated.
 
Supervan II said:
A firearm is useless in a safe. It should be readily available for use, always.

WRT your children (dependent on age) and your wife/partner: they should also be taught to respect and be familiar with the safe handling of a firearm - chances are that YOU will be the primary target in a home invasion and they should be able to ward off any attack whilst you are injured/incapacitated.
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I think there is a difference between home defence vs self defence.

For self defence you need your weapon on you at all times.

Home defence is when your alarm goes off in the middle of the night. If you have your home security sorted out then that should give you enough time to get to safe, before the bad guys get inside.

Not everyone wants to carry a firearm on them every day, some only want it for home defence. People are different, face different risks and have different needs etc.

Plus some people only want to use a firearm for sports use, but also want it to keep their family safe at home. Different strokes etc.
 
alanB said:
I think there is a difference between home defence vs self defence.

For self defence you need your weapon on you at all times.

Home defence is when your alarm goes off in the middle of the night. If you have your home security sorted out then that should give you enough time to get to safe, before the bad guys get inside.

Not everyone wants to carry a firearm on them every day, some only want it for home defence. People are different, face different risks and have different needs etc.

Plus some people only want to use a firearm for sports use, but also want it to keep their family safe at home. Different strokes etc.
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Lock your bedroom door at night. Or/and install a security gate to cordon off the sleeping area.

That way they can never surprise you in your bed.
 
cda said:
Not just that but Im 99.9% sure gangs arent walking around with AK47s stolen from regular self defence armaments, they come over the boarders from Mozam and others where they were left lying around by war lords. The weapons favored by criminals are not even the kind you would buy for self defence
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I believe that the snag with AK47's is to get ammunition. They use the shorter 7.62mm round, not shared by the SADF, SAPS etc (which, in SA, could make ammunition available cheaply via your local Gupta type supplier to government).
SoldierMan said:
Your best bet is to go through a course that teaches you the ins and outs of firearms. Not only how to shoot, but how the gun works, the 4 rules of gun safety, etc.

Plenty people feel insecure around owning a firearm at first but once they understand how they work, know that it will only go off if you pull the trigger and is otherwise an inert object, the fear soon goes away and is replaced with caution and respect.

Some of this is dealt with when you do your Proficiency tests. But having a professional teach you the fundamentals would be a very good idea.

Edit: Let me just add, responsible gun owners like myself always keep the 4 fundamental rules of safety in mind when handling firearms, it becomes second nature because of what a firearm is, and that way there is very little chance that something could go wrong.

Here they are:

1. Always treat every gun as if it were loaded.
2. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Always be sure of your target and beyond.

If you follow these rules and teach others the same your firearm will soon become something you are happy to carry on you.
These are the kinds of things you will learn when doing your Proficiency tests and doing a course with an instructor.
Click to expand...
Good notes -
 
Sorry, interrupted; good notes; add always check and double check no cartridge in chamber after gun use; cock and pull trigger to be sure, always pointed in safe direction (duh).

Then, try never to "attack", i.e. go looking for someone on your property for example, because you have a gun; ambush is too easy. Wait for the "trouble" to come to you when you are in a defensible position. Not easy I know but have lost at least one friend to ambush.
 
So, can anyone recommend a good firearm competency training centre in Durban?
 
Oldfut said:
Sorry, interrupted; good notes; add always check and double check no cartridge in chamber after gun use; cock and pull trigger to be sure, always pointed in safe direction (duh).

Then, try never to "attack", i.e. go looking for someone on your property for example, because you have a gun; ambush is too easy. Wait for the "trouble" to come to you when you are in a defensible position. Not easy I know but have lost at least one friend to ambush.
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Hey, we all want to be that fat old badass in his underwear raging as he chases intruders out to the street while firing at the bastids.
 
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