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Huge jump in South Africans looking to emigrate – and load shedding isn’t helping
- Thread starter BusinessTech
- Start date
Yes this is a huge concern. This needs to be addressed urgently.
I used to believe in lenience - compassion etc. Then I had kids. That changed me. I know for certain that if anyone harms one of my children - I will take them out (and not necessarily in a humane way). I do believe that people deserve a punishment that fits the crime. Some people are beyond saving. If you take away someone's right to life - then you should lose the same right. And yes - I do see the irony. In taking a life I will be forfeiting my own. I am ok with that.
I do not see why we should fund these people in prisons - these people who see no value in living/life. But this is really a derailment. Incidentally - motherhood also made me a fan of abortion. Some of the things that happen to unwanted children makes the act of abortion pale in comparison.
I used to believe in lenience - compassion etc. Then I had kids. That changed me. I know for certain that if anyone harms one of my children - I will take them out (and not necessarily in a humane way). I do believe that people deserve a punishment that fits the crime. Some people are beyond saving. If you take away someone's right to life - then you should lose the same right. And yes - I do see the irony. In taking a life I will be forfeiting my own. I am ok with that.
I do not see why we should fund these people in prisons - these people who see no value in living/life. But this is really a derailment. Incidentally - motherhood also made me a fan of abortion. Some of the things that happen to unwanted children makes the act of abortion pale in comparison.
As someone who has been an outsider looking in for almost 4 years now, I can honestly say it was the best decision the wife and I ever made. We still have a large number of friends and family in SA, and constantly hear how each day gets just that little bit tougher. And yes, not having power for most of the day makes things infinitely worse.
I live in a country where the electricity service I pay for is still on when I get home - always. Where the unemployment rate has now fallen to below 4%. Where I have "free", excellent healthcare. Where we feel SAFE. The list of benefits of living in the First World is, in fact, endless, and I guess you're all aware of them by now. But someday, it comes down to that one decision: do you stay, and hope and pray that things will get "better" (what defines better in SA these days? The lights staying on?), or do you go somewhere else where you no longer have to worry about any of that? It becomes quite a simple choice in the end.
I live in a country where the electricity service I pay for is still on when I get home - always. Where the unemployment rate has now fallen to below 4%. Where I have "free", excellent healthcare. Where we feel SAFE. The list of benefits of living in the First World is, in fact, endless, and I guess you're all aware of them by now. But someday, it comes down to that one decision: do you stay, and hope and pray that things will get "better" (what defines better in SA these days? The lights staying on?), or do you go somewhere else where you no longer have to worry about any of that? It becomes quite a simple choice in the end.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2008
- Messages
- 27,239
The problem with the death penalty is multi-faceted.
1. There is a difference between a personal desire to protect your family (good) and the State acting out of what is basically revenge not justice (no justice is actually served when the State kills, it simply satisfies the urge to hurt).
2. Violence begets violence, so that violence you want to protect your kids from, is more likely to happen in a state that kills people. Stats from the US show that violent crime and murder increase substantially in states that have the death penalty.
3. Harsh penalties for crime are not a deterrent. Murder rates do not go down when the penalty is death. Stealing does not go down when the penalty is having your hand chopped off. The threat of being stoned to death does not stop people from having extra-marital affairs. It just makes them more careful about being caught (at best) but seeing as how people commit crime because they believe they will get away with it, the actual deterrent is not what will happen when they are caught, but in making sure they believe they will be caught. That is to say you can threaten dire consequences till the cows come home, but if criminals think they won't be caught, it doesn't make any difference what you threaten them with. However it has been proven that active policing of small crimes creating the general belief that you can't get away with anything, has a profound effect on reducing violent crime.
4. The justice system is not perfect. In the US alone hundreds of innocent people are incarcerated for life and/or given the death penalty. This is not an acceptable risk if you have any value for real justice.
5. Someone has to do the actual killing and the psychological effects on everyone involved in ending a life are well documented. Again, it goes to what is justice. When all is said and done, is it right to permanently psychologically damage (with the related damage to their immediate and extended families) the people who have to carry out a death sentence, it is right to risk putting to death an innocent person, for what is proven to result in an increase in the very crime you are trying to prevent, just so you can have your need for vengeance satisfied?
Your natural protective instincts are not a good basis for determining justice. I am a mother too, and yes I would also kill to protect my child in the immediacy of a life or death situation, but I absolutely recognise the difference between protecting myself and my family in a particular situation and what is right for the State to do in the name of justice.
1. There is a difference between a personal desire to protect your family (good) and the State acting out of what is basically revenge not justice (no justice is actually served when the State kills, it simply satisfies the urge to hurt).
2. Violence begets violence, so that violence you want to protect your kids from, is more likely to happen in a state that kills people. Stats from the US show that violent crime and murder increase substantially in states that have the death penalty.
3. Harsh penalties for crime are not a deterrent. Murder rates do not go down when the penalty is death. Stealing does not go down when the penalty is having your hand chopped off. The threat of being stoned to death does not stop people from having extra-marital affairs. It just makes them more careful about being caught (at best) but seeing as how people commit crime because they believe they will get away with it, the actual deterrent is not what will happen when they are caught, but in making sure they believe they will be caught. That is to say you can threaten dire consequences till the cows come home, but if criminals think they won't be caught, it doesn't make any difference what you threaten them with. However it has been proven that active policing of small crimes creating the general belief that you can't get away with anything, has a profound effect on reducing violent crime.
4. The justice system is not perfect. In the US alone hundreds of innocent people are incarcerated for life and/or given the death penalty. This is not an acceptable risk if you have any value for real justice.
5. Someone has to do the actual killing and the psychological effects on everyone involved in ending a life are well documented. Again, it goes to what is justice. When all is said and done, is it right to permanently psychologically damage (with the related damage to their immediate and extended families) the people who have to carry out a death sentence, it is right to risk putting to death an innocent person, for what is proven to result in an increase in the very crime you are trying to prevent, just so you can have your need for vengeance satisfied?
Your natural protective instincts are not a good basis for determining justice. I am a mother too, and yes I would also kill to protect my child in the immediacy of a life or death situation, but I absolutely recognise the difference between protecting myself and my family in a particular situation and what is right for the State to do in the name of justice.
And we feel for you, we really do. It's a **** position to be in.
But there are a number of people on the forum who CAN leave tomorrow if they wanted to, but choose not to. It's no surprise that things in SA are bad - it didn't happen overnight, either. It's been in steady decline over two decades now, and like frogs in warm water, they've been telling themselves that it isn't all that bad, that things could be worse, that they'll stick around until it really kicks off and make a choice then.
I was one of those frogs, too. I love South Africa, it's where I was born and raised. The weather is perfect, it's one of the most beautiful countries I've ever had the pleasure of being in, and the majority of people are good, decent human beings. But those are superficial factors - things that just tug on the heart strings, and make the warm (now hot) water bearable for just a little while longer. I realised, however, that at the current rate of decline, that the water would start boiling eventually, and I didn't want to be there when it did.
My question to everyone who can leave, but chooses not to is: what is your boiling point? What will finally push you over the edge so that you say "**** this, I'm off", pack all your things and go to where the grass most definitely IS greener? And is it wise to have that option and not use it now? Or are you still waiting for things to get better? Without a doubt, it's a gamble, and the odds aren't exactly stacked in your favour.
But there are a number of people on the forum who CAN leave tomorrow if they wanted to, but choose not to. It's no surprise that things in SA are bad - it didn't happen overnight, either. It's been in steady decline over two decades now, and like frogs in warm water, they've been telling themselves that it isn't all that bad, that things could be worse, that they'll stick around until it really kicks off and make a choice then.
I was one of those frogs, too. I love South Africa, it's where I was born and raised. The weather is perfect, it's one of the most beautiful countries I've ever had the pleasure of being in, and the majority of people are good, decent human beings. But those are superficial factors - things that just tug on the heart strings, and make the warm (now hot) water bearable for just a little while longer. I realised, however, that at the current rate of decline, that the water would start boiling eventually, and I didn't want to be there when it did.
My question to everyone who can leave, but chooses not to is: what is your boiling point? What will finally push you over the edge so that you say "**** this, I'm off", pack all your things and go to where the grass most definitely IS greener? And is it wise to have that option and not use it now? Or are you still waiting for things to get better? Without a doubt, it's a gamble, and the odds aren't exactly stacked in your favour.
Yes there might be time I say no more, but to be honest I have not thought about that. If it happens it happens and I will feel sad to leave South Africa. Currently I won't have the same lifestyle overseas as I have here, and the grass is greener on the other side as it probably has some different $h!t on it. (Took me some time to add the word s h i t here as it was * out). Hey MyBB don't be so prude
I can leave anytime (Have dual nationality as does my daughter, except my wife, It shouldn't be to difficult to get her into Europe)
You might want to start doing some research on what’s needed (and it’s already likely to be a bit more than “shouldn’t be too difficult).
All I’m saying is maybe start doing some homework as to what’s needed, having a visitors visa is no indication that a residence visa would follow.
The financial requirements for spouse visas have gone from virtually nothing to quite substantial since the turn of the century and many European countries are likely to bring in even more restrictions.
The financial requirements for spouse visas have gone from virtually nothing to quite substantial since the turn of the century and many European countries are likely to bring in even more restrictions.
