I am going to be dismissed, advice please.

[Electric]

Dude hasn't returned = troll?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I know if I recently hired someone and as their probation period ended they took several days off for work flu I would be unhappy but I would be understanding. But if the guy then tells me on the monday he is going to be off because now his doctor says he has depression... well for me that would be red flag stuff. I would feel like Im getting messed around. Its a different ball game if the guy has been with you for a year or two and you know him, but with a new person... you might get the feeling this person is going to be more trouble than they are worth. A weak and a half sick leave in your first several months is hectic.

Ive also never known anyone in the entire time I have been working that has taken a week and a half off work for flu. Wait, I lie, I know some people in government who do that

Yeaaaaah, I'm gonna call bullschit on this. For the following reason:

Tuesday I go see the doctor, I am feeling somewhat better but feeling very lethargic. The doctor diagnoses me with depression and advises me to see a psychologist, prescribes me treatment to begin immediately

I presume he went to his GP again. So this GP diagnosed him with depression AND prescribed treatment for it? Please.

I read it properly the first time. Time means nothing dude, what your signature is on is law, if its a persisted probation contract you can be 15 years into employment and that clause would still apply - although much easier to appeal at that stage.

Yeah, so if he signed a contract for 3 months and it's over then he's no longer bound by it, surely?

We don't know if he was on persisted probation. But how can it be a persistent probation contract if it's a 3 month employment contract? :erm:

 

[w1z4rd]

Dont GPs normally send patients to a psychiatrist?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Dont GPs normally send patients to a psychiatrist?

Indeed. They could refer you, but they won't diagnose you with depression or prescribe treatment for it.

 

[semaphore]

Plus anti depressants would be awesome. Still curious why he is depressed over pregnancy.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Plus anti depressants would be awesome. Still curious why he is depressed over pregnancy.

I think it's more stress than depression from the pregnancy. Stress feeds into depression.

 

[Lucas Buck]

Plus anti depressants would be awesome. Still curious why he is depressed over pregnancy.

Probably hasn't had sex with the wife for a few months due to work related stress. Trying to figure out if it's the CIO or the HR consultant, hence the e-mail checks.

 

[newklear]

Thank You to everyone for their replies, I see there are quiet a few responses with varied opinions, positive or negative, I appreciate.

Firstly - as long as you have evidence of notifying the company that you were booked off - or indeed evidence that you contacted them with an estimated return date, they cant get you for having absconded. It wont fly at CCMA. But - you need the evidence.
To be clear, there is no DEFINED time frame for absconding in the BCEA or LRA - most companies have a 7 day policy.

Secondly, having been at the company longer than the three months in their employ, you could argue on grounds of expectation - ie - there was an expectation of continued employment. Ch 8 - section 186 (b).

Thirdly - the employer needs to bring the signed contract as evidence to the hearing or to the CCMA assuming it goes that far if they want to prove breach.

Finally, the code of good practice in the LRA considers substance and procedure in hearings.
Procedurally, the company is on solid ground IMHO, but the substance of the case is shakey.

You will need to prove they knew that you were going to be off, and they have to prove the breach by showing a signed contract. If you are dismissed and this is a first offence, they may have been unduly harsh in their sanction. If you are dismissed you have 30days from the notification of such to apply to the CCMA - assuming the employer does not have an appeal mechanism.

Good luck.

Makes no difference, if the new contract was not signed it is not valid, and the last agreed contract comes into play - that being the terms and conditions of employment agreed to - as far as I am aware.

Thanks TEXTILE GUY, you have given me some hope and given me confidence in some of the BCEA procedural policies. I have proof of letting the company know of my status and have been in touch with some colleagues with regards to help they needed. HR has made a mistake of lying to the CIO in stating I have signed their last contract of employment so I think it will be difficult for them to prove breach of contract. I will obviously find out what happens on Monday.

My previous contract was a 3 month fixed term contract, I presume all clauses and conditions fell away when the contract period ended ?

My boss doesnt even know how to operate his email, so i always have to go through it

OP - Staying off work no matter how sick, you should have dragged yourself to the office. Yeah sorry you're a tad bit screwed. Why are you depressed your SO is pregnant. If you didnt want a kid you should have taken precautions. :erm:

My doctor said there are various triggers which brings on depression, having a child is considered one of them.

@ OP.

In all honesty, you have not signed any contract yet, so thus your 3 months expired. They realised now you have some kind of issue and decided to rather walk away. You're pretty much farked. You can ague that you should have been made perm after 3 months but the company will pay the settlement and walk away. They probably have someone in your place already, you haven't been at work for 2 weeks...

Do I think it's fair? No. Would I have done the same if I was the employer? Yes.

I also have put myself in my employer's shoes and can see that they are interested in production, frankly I don't blame them. I just needed some good advice to prepare myself for Monday.

IT normally have access to highly sensitive information. You are expected to work with integrity and what he has done is highly illegal.

Quite frankly he should be fired.

I see your point, I have not printed any of the emails nor will I bringing this up as any kind of evidence. I was just merely curious as to what the truth was because I was told one thing with actions being something else. All of our IT department have access to most of everyone's emails because of regular ID10T errors and or permission to log in and email on behalf of certain colleagues.

Also - do you even want to work there again, even if you get found not guilty for being AWOL?

I wouldn't

Correct Dolby, I honestly do not want to resume my work at this company mainly because firstly I feel I have been let down with empty promises and purposeless procedural policies by HR and secondly I do feel embarrassed with the time I have been off and not too mention being diagnosed with Depression.

Did they inform you correctly in your notification letter about the "charges" and that you are allowed to have a person "of your choice" representing you? If not, go sit there listen and explain and if it turns sour wait till the end and if judgement is given immediately nail them.
You are allowed a representative of your choice (not a legal rep though)
If they decide then and there that you are dismissed them that is a huge no no because the chairperson must decide over a period of time whilst weighing up all evidence as to the outcome. If the do it's forceful dismissal and the CCMA will love it.

Be polite, helpful and honest and everything should go your way.

They have not stated all you mention in their email and attached letter. Thank you for your words of wisdom Hemi300c.

Yeaaaaah, I'm gonna call bullschit on this. For the following reason:



I presume he went to his GP again. So this GP diagnosed him with depression AND prescribed treatment for it? Please.



Yeah, so if he signed a contract for 3 months and it's over then he's no longer bound by it, surely?

We don't know if he was on persisted probation. But how can it be a persistent probation contract if it's a 3 month employment contract? :erm:

I actually went to a different GP the second time, a psychiatrist has a degree in medicine, just like any recognised doctor or GP who are able to prescribe medicine. Thanks for the feedback, you have given me confidence.

Indeed. They could refer you, but they won't diagnose you with depression or prescribe treatment for it.

The doctor went through a list of symptons of depression, I have most of them.

Plus anti depressants would be awesome. Still curious why he is depressed over pregnancy.

As i understand it, my wife's pregnancy was just one of the triggers.

Thanks again for everyone's input, greatly appreciated.

 

[ChocolateBadger]

I think your hr guy is gonna feel real silly when he has no signature on a contract to pin you.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I actually went to a different GP the second time, a psychiatrist has a degree in medicine, just like any recognised doctor or GP who are able to prescribe medicine. Thanks for the feedback, you have given me confidence.

The doctor went through a list of symptons of depression, I have most of them.

Yes, I know what a psychiatrist is.

Did you go to a psychiatrist, and was he/she the one that diagnosed you with depression, or a GP (General Practitioner)?

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

OP (and I am saying this as much sympathy as I can), although the company has let you down and HR has not played open cards with you, your ethics are highly questionable (perhaps you were not aware of it at the point in time), but I would not tolerate staff accessing confidential information which are not part of their job. Accessing your CIO's and HR staff's email is something which should not be tolerated and would result in immediate dismissal.

Also to be frank, you worked on a 3 month fixed contract and a company has no obligation to hire you after expiry of such contract. In fact contracts of such temporary nature will always have clauses such as immediate termination of the contract by either party within a set period of time (and considering the contract was only 3 months, I would think that notice would be no more than 2 weeks). I also doubt that such contract would have any clause for automatic extension in there.

AFAIK, temporary contracts of such short notice do not carry any provision for leave, sick leave etc - you are a "contract worker / freelancer", but this would really be properly defined in your terms of the contract itself.

In my mind you are not fired, as your employment condition in terms of your 3-month contract finished. There might be a opportunity of interpreting your employers continuance in payment of an extension of contract (i.e. your contact terminated in July, but you continued working in August and got paid).

In my opinion, I think you should look for another job and close off with your current company and in the best case make sure that you received pay for service rendered. I also think that with your next employment you should respect your employers privacy and not snoop in people's private mail (unless this is one of your KPAs).

I have a high level of tolerance for people facing difficult personal or medical situations, but I have absolutely no tolerance for people being dishonest (and this is what you have done, by looking at your employers email) - there is no excuse for this, no matter how dire your situation is.

 

[Kosmik]

I see your point, I have not printed any of the emails nor will I bringing this up as any kind of evidence. I was just merely curious as to what the truth was because I was told one thing with actions being something else. All of our IT department have access to most of everyone's emails because of regular ID10T errors and or permission to log in and email on behalf of certain colleagues.

I'm not harping on here but by your response you actually are still failing to see the point. As a IT person, who is trusted with sensitive information, you should never even have considered or read any mail. Whether you are curious or not is no excuse, whether you have access or not, IS NOT an excuse. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, that is what seperates anarchy from order, the mental ability to know whether you should have done something.

Look regarding your employment situation, it is not right and they have done you wrong by allowing you to remain employed and not clarifying your contract. Employment is a contract like any other, with the commodity being your time and effort. They have no right to it without providing you the explanation of how you will be compensated for it. For what it's worth, I wish you all the best in sorting it out and hope you come out on top regarding that but I find your other actions inexcusable and strongly suggest you learn and grasp the possible consequences those actions can mean for you, in this employment and any other you go to.

 

[newklear]

I think your hr guy is gonna feel real silly when he has no signature on a contract to pin you.

The email that was sent to me about the hearing on Monday by HR has two other director's CC'd in there and presume all three will be present in the hearing.

The doctor went through a list of symptons of depression, I have most of them.

Yes, I know what a psychiatrist is.

Did you go to a psychiatrist, and was he/she the one that diagnosed you with depression, or a GP (General Practitioner)?[/QUOTE]

I have an appointment with the Psychiatrist tomorrow (Apologies, I see in my OP I said Psychologist, double checked the appointment card and it's definitely a psychiatrist), The second GP I saw was the one that diagnosed me.

OP (and I am saying this as much sympathy as I can), although the company has let you down and HR has not played open cards with you, your ethics are highly questionable (perhaps you were not aware of it at the point in time), but I would not tolerate staff accessing confidential information which are not part of their job. Accessing your CIO's and HR staff's email is something which should not be tolerated and would result in immediate dismissal.

Also to be frank, you worked on a 3 month fixed contract and a company has no obligation to hire you after expiry of such contract. In fact contracts of such temporary nature will always have clauses such as immediate termination of the contract by either party within a set period of time (and considering the contract was only 3 months, I would think that notice would be no more than 2 weeks). I also doubt that such contract would have any clause for automatic extension in there.

AFAIK, temporary contracts of such short notice do not carry any provision for leave, sick leave etc - you are a "contract worker / freelancer", but this would really be properly defined in your terms of the contract itself.

In my mind you are not fired, as your employment condition in terms of your 3-month contract finished. There might be a opportunity of interpreting your employers continuance in payment of an extension of contract (i.e. your contact terminated in July, but you continued working in August and got paid).

In my opinion, I think you should look for another job and close off with your current company and in the best case make sure that you received pay for service rendered. I also think that with your next employment you should respect your employers privacy and not snoop in people's private mail (unless this is one of your KPAs).

I have a high level of tolerance for people facing difficult personal or medical situations, but I have absolutely no tolerance for people being dishonest (and this is what you have done, by looking at your employers email) - there is no excuse for this, no matter how dire your situation is.

I am not proud about admitting I read email to and from HR and the CIO, I needed some clarity. To be honest, it was the companies Network Administrator that suggested it. He has subsequently handed in resignation and is working in his month's notice which is why I feel he suggested checking email in the first place. All the company members do have a good trust relationship with the IT department when it comes to email, active directory and sensitive documents.

When I first joined the company they asked me to write up my own JD for performance appraisal, they did not have one for a developer and one of my duties in the JD was that I would log into the Network Administrators email and send out warning/information emails on occassion as well as assist employees with email configuration. It was done this way as the sending option to 'All' was often abused. If an employee forgot his email password, either myself or one of the Network or IT administrators would often reset their password to the default which everyone knew.

I am wrong by checking those emails, however none of management is aware of this and I have no further intention of ever checking them.

 

[newklear]

I'm not harping on here but by your response you actually are still failing to see the point. As a IT person, who is trusted with sensitive information, you should never even have considered or read any mail. Whether you are curious or not is no excuse, whether you have access or not, IS NOT an excuse. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, that is what seperates anarchy from order, the mental ability to know whether you should have done something.

Look regarding your employment situation, it is not right and they have done you wrong by allowing you to remain employed and not clarifying your contract. Employment is a contract like any other, with the commodity being your time and effort. They have no right to it without providing you the explanation of how you will be compensated for it. For what it's worth, I wish you all the best in sorting it out and hope you come out on top regarding that but I find your other actions inexcusable and strongly suggest you learn and grasp the possible consequences those actions can mean for you, in this employment and any other you go to.

Yep much agreed Kosmik, as I have stated, I am not happy with my actions. Frankly, I probably wouldn't employ myself either. I have had a big lesson here and look for a fair outcome for both the company and myself. Thank You for your words of wisdom.

 

[Lucas Buck]

The email that was sent to me about the hearing on Monday by HR has two other director's CC'd in there and presume all three will be present in the hearing...

For someone who is facing a disciplinary hearing, you are providing information that can identify you as well as information that can be harmful to you. You have a good case seeing as they did offer you a new contract but snooping through other peoples e-mail may come back to bite you in the arse.

 

[semaphore]

I think it's more stress than depression from the pregnancy. Stress feeds into depression.

He should harden the fuk up. Christ what Is with menopausal men.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

He should harden the fuk up. Christ what Is with menopausal men.

:wtf::erm:

 

[semaphore]

Yep much agreed Kosmik, as I have stated, I am not happy with my actions. Frankly, I probably wouldn't employ myself either. I have had a big lesson here and look for a fair outcome for both the company and myself. Thank You for your words of wisdom.

Yet you still did it. Furthermore a GP is not a psychologist, you should have just gone to work. But yeah cut your losses and look for a new job.

 

[semaphore]

:wtf::erm:

Sorry. This is the first I'm hearing someone get depressed because their partner is pregnant, sounds like a wimp . wtf did he think was gonna happen without using protection or prevention.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Sorry. This is the first I'm hearing someone get depressed because their partner is pregnant, sounds like a wimp . wtf did he think was gonna happen without using protection or prevention.

Maybe you shouldn't play keyboard psychiatrist...? We don't know the details of this guy's life and mind.