I cannot apologise for fighting against apartheid': Robert McBride defends Durban bombing

Stonemason

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Then why call it the apartheid referendum when the decision to end apartheid had actually already been made and the only thing that was actually being voted on was the then current negotiations?
It was actually not called that at the time. It later became known as the Apartheid referendum because it effectlively brought the dawn of full democracy in South Africa,

Apartheid started dying many years before that. Petty apartheid (which banned people from using the same facilities) actually started to die in the late 1970's. Grand Apartheid which included such laws as the Work Reservation Act (which was the NP's name for the reverse of BEE) and acts banning mixed marriages, separate group areas etc all started disappearing in the early 1990's.
 

Cray

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Just a small taste of reality. Don't believe the re-written history.
Sorry, am not sure what "re-written" history you are referring to....? I never disputed that the ANC killed innocent people, I was simply saying that the Nats did more than their fair share of it too...

Craig Williamson admitted to the TRC that he mailed the letter bomb that killed Jeanette Schoon and her daughter....
 

Mar Vin

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Sorry, am not sure what "re-written" history you are referring to....? I never disputed that the ANC killed innocent people, I was simply saying that the Nats did more than their fair share of it too...

Craig Williamson admitted to the TRC that he mailed the letter bomb that killed Jeanette Schoon and her daughter....
They retaliated. Them killing is worse than the govt they fought? seems that's the only issue here.
 

Cray

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They retaliated. Them killing is worse than the govt they fought? seems that's the only issue here.
Innocent deaths are innocent deaths, all should be condemned. The deaths of the people in the Magoo's Bar/Amanzimtoti bombings are just as reprehensible as those people murdered by apartheid goons for the simple fact of demonstrating for equal rights...
 

Mar Vin

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I think what we all need to realise is that the past cannot be judged using today's values/rules. The past must be judged based on the circumstances/rules that prevailed at the time.
True....but to forget/ignore the impact the past has on the future would be ignorant.
 

rambo919

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It was actually not called that at the time. It later became known as the Apartheid referendum because it effectively brought the dawn of full democracy in South Africa,
True though that might be.... it was never specifically or directly a vote to end apartheid. Legal technicalities matter more than subjective propoganda.

Apartheid started dying many years before that. Petty apartheid (which banned people from using the same facilities) actually started to die in the late 1970's. Grand Apartheid which included such laws as the Work Reservation Act (which was the NP's name for the reverse of BEE) and acts banning mixed marriages, separate group areas etc all started disappearing in the early 1990's.
Exactly, due to the decision made in 1985 apartheid (or grand apartheid if you rather) was being slowly disbanded. There was no public vote for it.
 

Stonemason

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True though that might be.... it was never specifically or directly a vote to end apartheid. Legal technicalities matter more than subjective propoganda.


Exactly, due to the decision made in 1985 aparted (or grand apartheid if you rather) was being slowly disbanded. There was no public vote for it.
I think a person would have been very ignorant, maybe even stupid, if he/she did not realise that a new constitution meant the end of apartheid. After all, the previous big change was the tricameral parliament which was a clear indication of where things were heading.

After the tricameral parliament there was a big backlash from conservatives in the form of the Conservative Party but people still elected the National Party. I therefore have no doubt that the National Party had the support of the majority of the electorate to end apartheid and they started doing so long before the second referendum.
 

rambo919

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I think a person would have been very ignorant, maybe even stupid, if he/she did not realise that a new constitution meant the end of apartheid. After all, the previous big change was the tricameral parliament which was a clear indication of where things were heading.

After the tricameral parliament there was a big backlash from conservatives in the form of the Conservative Party but people still elected the National Party. I therefore have no doubt that the National Party had the support of the majority of the electorate to end apartheid and they started doing so long before the second referendum.
Now you are dancing around the issue, the vote was still not one to end apartheid.

Your explination itself means any other party other than the NP would have ended apartheid, it did not have to be a struggler faction.
 

Tokolotshe

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This was the ANC's approach towards actions such as those undertaken by McBride.




So the fact is the ANC maintained the moral high-ground throughout the struggle in spite of those civilian casualties.
R E A L L Y !! (so sorry Wizard, plagiarizing your style)


Between November 1985 and May 1987 at least 24 individuals were killed in the ANC's landmine campaign (excluding the three who died in the Hectorspruit incident). Of these, 15 were black and 9 were white. Of the white South Africans killed three were women, four were children and two were men. Lance Corporal Le Roux was the only soldier, and only white male of army going age, killed in these operations.

Despite its overt ANC sympathies the Truth and Reconciliation Commission nonetheless found that "the ANC's landmine campaigns in the period 1985 -1987 in the rural areas of the Northern and Eastern Transvaal cannot be condoned, in that it resulted in gross violations of the human rights of civilians including farm labourers and children, who were killed or injured, The ANC is held accountable for such gross human rights violations."

Read that whole article. So in fact the ANC did not maintain the moral high ground - as per the TRC.
 
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Stonemason

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Now you are dancing around the issue, the vote was still not one to end apartheid.

Your explination itself means any other party other than the NP would have ended apartheid, it did not have to be a struggler faction.

whether you like it or not, apartheid was at its end and the NP was supported by its electorate to end it.
 

Tokolotshe

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Yes, they always sought the moral high ground with their propaganda...... pity they never followed through in practice though.
Actually, even then not. They simply changed the definition of who the enemy was. It would even include the uninvolved truth-sayer.

... and still do. Even Mc Bride says:
And while sometimes politicians heighten tensions for the ballot box, normal people are getting on. Not that we brush over inequality or we brush over the injustices of the past, but we are reaching out to each other,” he said.

Exactly like they did 40 years back ...
 

rambo919

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Actually, even then not. They simply changed the definition of who the enemy was. It would even include the uninvolved truth-sayer.

... and still do. Even Mc Bride says:


Exactly like they did 40 years back ...
Actually they redefined enemy in a way to keep the moral high ground in their twisted way of thinking. These are mentally ill people not rational beings.
 

Stonemason

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I never questioned that. I questioned the popular narrative of how it happened.
The NP was in power at the time and there was no internal party who could challenge it at that time. Not at the ballot box or through the barrel of a gun. Therefore the NP was the only party who could end apartheid at the particular stage that apartheid was ended.
 

Tokolotshe

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The NP was in power at the time and there was no internal party who could challenge it at that time. Not at the ballot box or through the barrel of a gun. Therefore the NP was the only party who could end apartheid at the particular stage that apartheid was ended.
Much like today. Sadly people have not learnt from history, but rather resort to obfuscating the real cost of the past, also the blame, even using some of the past tactics again to force us into the same mistakes today. :(
 

rambo919

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The NP was in power at the time and there was no internal party who could challenge it at that time. Not at the ballot box or through the barrel of a gun. Therefore the NP was the only party who could end apartheid at the particular stage that apartheid was ended.
Not something I ever questioned either..... you keep saying wider things as if they directly contradict anything I said.
 

Tokolotshe

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Again

Anecdotal evidence is often insufficient because it does not allow for the complete picture, simply being there at the time means nothing in itself.

Differently put whether I was there or not at the time does not mean anything.
Try telling that to a court: Hearsay!

But then again my real world "ancedotal" childhood in the old South Africa, on an "evil" farm will probably then not count either. We can play games with realities any way you want. Sadly it does not tally with many of the myths today on either side. No people were abused the farm, nobody was rich. Money for 3 months salaries was kept aside, should the farm go belly up. We did not get free power, water. Loans were friggin expensive. When we got power, everybody got power, worker and farm owner. From the word go, water was via a tank for everybody.

We had somebody growing up on the farm, my friend, going to to veld school, coming back radicalized. His own brother asked to rather get him to leave the farm. When his wife gave birth, things went south. Today there is a ~47 yr old black lady with my mother's name out there somewhere, brought into this world by my mother after the district surgeon could not make it. This was the way of proud parents to say thank you. Unfortunately we have extremely diverse cultures in South Africa. But somehow we respected that, respected people for themselves, from both sides.

Sure, the cultures did result in 'funny' situations. One Madala was was frantic when I played with a crab. If it bit me I would turn into a women. But it was made clear to me by dad that you respect belief systems. I understood the irony of the white folk who had stoves and having a braai being funny to the black people. People could actually joke with people.

We also understood the different justice systems. If somebody was caught stealing on the farm, the perpetrator would be brought to the farm owner. The compassionate thing to do was call the police if he was deemed guilty. If not, it was explained why punishment based upon suspicion was not appropriate. The farm owner substituted for the chief, a role not to be taken lightly.

One day my dad and I went to town. Unbeknowst to us, PW Botha was in town. He was giving a speech. My dad made a U-turn with me, ascribed the word bobbejaan to him. (yep the term has been appropriated today). This was just after the electorial district had been re-zoned into another area, much like they try today, to ensure a political outcome in the vote. It was not exactly Nat country.

If you wanted extra people to help on the farm during a certain peak period on the farm, you'd speak to the captain/chief in the homeland. It would be decided what the salaries were etc. You needed to respect this step.

When people started threatening people, it was outsiders. It affected everybody. The bush telegraph does exist. When farms were being burnt down, you had to protect not only yourself, but also your people. 'Your'; including people working for you, likewise your neighbours and the people on their farms. The people doing the burning and killing were of a mindset of join us or you are against us. Their goal was to undermine and destroy anythign and everything that contradicted them, not only the government. It included slipping people into happy communities to undermine them, report on them. That was understood by all and why the one guy asked to let his brother go. He was crying at the time. And yes, he was black.

That is my ancedotal evidence, vs your hearsay. But words don't change reality.

The terrorism, apartheid and the war on apartheid affected everybody, innocent and not. Being a farmer put a target on your back. Living right next to a homeland made it especially so. Much like being merely being white today in certain circles even today.

But hey, popular history disagrees.
 
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