I cannot apologise for fighting against apartheid': Robert McBride defends Durban bombing

[Vrotappel]

Him being an ANC hero tells you all you need to know about the ANC.

 

[konfab]

I am not saying that at all. All I am saying, the outrage at Robert must be equally dispensed to the apartheid forces. Equally murderous.

The thread is about McBride.

 

[Stonemason]

I don't have time for this - go through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission transcripts.

You will find surprisingly few cases like you describe in the transcripts. The only known case of bombs being planted by the then security forces were when they sabotaged ANC arms caches which caused premature explosions when being used by the ANC and the PAC operatives to attempt to bomb civilian targets.

The bomb attacks in Botswana en Lesotho does not count because the victims were certainly not innocent.

 

[Stonemason]

I lived through this as a journalist at the time. Whenever there was a protest, violence was a certainty - and it came from both sides.

 

[konfab]

I am sure the National Party would have been very legitimate if they allowed everyone to vote and be equal citizens. Democratically elected governments are generally accepted as legitimate even despite the atrocities they commit, just give people a chance to vote you out when they are tired of you and everything's cool.

Majority rule does not imply moral legitimacy. This isn't even a new concept. The Athenians had the same problem in 472 BC

Once the Mytilenians arrived in Athens, Salaethus was immediately executed and the assembly gathered to assess the situation and voted on the punitive actions that would be taken. The Athenian assembly, scared of further revolt, hastily sentenced all of the male citizens of Mytilene to death, while the women and children would be sold into slavery. According to Thucydides, after the decision was made a trireme was dispatched to Mytilene to carry out the orders and the Athenians, enraged by premeditated revolt, slaughtered all of the prisoners, who numbered around a thousand.[19]

The next day, the Athenians realized the unprecedented brutality of their actions and some became hesitant about the hurried decision to kill and enslave the citizens of Mytilene. A second debate, which Thucydides called the Mytilenian Debate, took place in order to reassess the course of action that should be taken. The debate consisted of varying opinions, the first of which was presented by Cleon of Athens. Cleon, a prominent member of Athenian society, spoke to defend the previous decision against doubts and to assert that the guilty party got the punishment they deserved. Cleon's reputation was violent and ruthless. Indeed, Thucydides describes him as "the most violent man in Athens."[20]

Cleon began by questioning the worth of a democracy: “Personally I have had occasion often enough already to observe that a democracy is incapable of governing others, and I am all the more convinced of this when I see how you are now changing your minds about the Mytilenians.”[21] He also implied the Athenians have become jaded by sophist oratory and questioned the worth of free speech. He described the Athenians as “victims of their own pleasure in listening, and are more like an audience sitting at the feet of a professional lecturer than a parliament discussing matters of state.”[21] He finishes his speech by urging the populace to not "be traitors to your own selves."

After Cleon's speech, Diodotus spoke in defense of his previous opposition to the death sentence. He stated that "haste and anger are... the two greatest obstacles to wise counsel...."[22] Diodotus argued the issue was not a question of Mytilene's guilt, and whether Athens should seek vengeance; rather it was a question of what is in Athens' best interest. Citing one of Cleon's main arguments for his position, Diodotus questioned whether the death penalty is really a means of deterrence from revolt or just the opposite. He finished by asking Athenians to fundamentally question what is right and just and look to moderation rather than aggressive punishment. Instead, he urged the Athenians to spare the Mytilenians in an effort to create an alliance.

Following Diodotus’ speech, the assembly recast their votes. Diodotus’ rational argument prevailed and managed to persuade the assembly not to massacre the Mytilenians. The Athenians, who initially ardently supported the total annihilation of the Mytilenians, now found themselves hesitant. As a result, the votes, which were originally unanimous, were narrowly passed in favor of Diodotus.

 

[Cray]

You will find surprisingly few cases like you describe in the transcripts. The only known case of bombs being planted by the then security forces were when they sabotaged ANC arms caches which caused premature explosions when being used by the ANC and the PAC operatives to attempt to bomb civilian targets.

The bomb attacks in Botswana en Lesotho does not count because the victims were certainly not innocent.

-so a six year old girl isn't innocent? And what did Jeanette Schoon do to deserve execution?

https://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event/jeannette-schoon-and-her-daughter-are-killed-letter-bomb

Former member of South African Congress of Trade Unions (SACTU), Jeannette Schoon, and her six-year old daughter, Katryn, were killed by a letter bomb at Lubango, in northern Angola on 28 June 1984. Anti-apartheid activist Marius Schoon (Jeannette's husband) was the target of the bombing because of his prior involvement in anti-apartheid politics. He was banned in South Africa and had initially taken his family into exile in Botswana, but they moved to Angola because they thought it would be safer. The letter was delivered by Craig Williamson, a spy for the security police who pretended to be a family friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Williamson

https://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1996/9606/s960609c.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Lapsley#Letter_bomb

 

[LazyLion]

I still don't see how that justifies killing other innocents?
Are you saying that tit-for-tat murders are OK?

 

[surface]

Because Apartheid was killing innocent blacks including children?

Isn't this fake news debunked on this forum already?

 

[Stonemason]

-so a six year old girl isn't innocent? And what did Jeanette Schoon do to deserve execution?

Schoon associated with what was at the time classified by the USA and the UK as a terrorist organisation. Lapsey did the same. That is not a measure of innocence. Also, be careful what you read on the sahistory website. They have a nasty habit of telling half truths mixed with a lot of lies

 

[Excalibur]

I still don't see how that justifies killing other innocents?
Are you saying that tit-for-tat murders are OK?

Are you saying people who were victims of crime against humanity by an evil regime were supposed to just turn the other cheek? The depraved things that your government committed are unmentionable, none of the ANC's responses actually come close. Why do you expect the oppressed to respond like saints?

 

[LazyLion]

Are you saying people who were victims of crime against humanity by an evil regime were supposed to just turn the other cheek? The depraved things that your government committed are unmentionable, none of the ANC's responses actually come close.

So the people who were being systematically killed just decided to become killers of innocents themselves... and in so doing became the very thing that they despised and were fighting against. Instead of rising above, they chose to stoop down to the same level, and thereby proved that they were actually no better and no different. There are no winners in war. Just lots of dead people.

And the ANC... once they had a taste for blood... allowed that thirst for vengeance to continue on AFTER the democratic elections, and it has now turned our nation into one of the bloodiest on the planet.

 

[Cray]

Schoon associated with what was at the time classified by the USA and the UK as a terrorist organisation.
Lapsey did the same. That is not a measure of innocence.

So, guilt by association - by that rationale any wife or child of anyone working for the apartheid government would have been a legitimate (not innocent) target? What actual crime did they commit that is deserving of murder?

Are you really trying to defend this?

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

He can die in a fire like the rest of them ..... you target women and children, you're a sick coward who deserves the worst. Fark your humanity, you have none prick

 

[IT_Steven]

So the people who were being systematically killed just decided to become killers of innocents themselves... and in so doing became the very thing that they despised and were fighting against. Instead of rising above, they chose to stoop down to the same level, and thereby proved that they were actually no better and no different. There are no winners in war. Just lots of dead people.

Fully agree with this.

And I am honestly shocked to read the justification mindset in this thread - and yet again from the usual gang.

 

[rambo919]

Are you saying people who were victims of crime against humanity by an evil regime were supposed to just turn the other cheek? The depraved things that your government committed are unmentionable, none of the ANC's responses actually come close. Why do you expect the oppressed to respond like saints?

You can call it a crime against humanity all you want, does not make it less of an exaggeration. The case of the UN calling it such at one time was actually a cold war tactic against SA by socialist countries with no real western support..... Apartheid was never universally legitimately declared a crime against humanity that's a myth.

Also currently China is doing the exact same things only WORSE and more besides but no one declares those crimes against humanity..... the moral compass is slightly broken yes?

I myself would far rather be black and suppressed (not oppressed) by whites the same way the NP did than be Chinese and be oppressed by current China today.

 

[rambo919]

So, guilt by association - by that rationale any wife or child of anyone working for the apartheid government would have been a legitimate (not innocent) target? What actual crime did they commit that is deserving of murder?

Are you really trying to defend this?

Actually the ANC themselves tended to kill those people..... traitors by association.

 

[Supervan II]

Are you saying people who were victims of crime against humanity by an evil regime were supposed to just turn the other cheek? The depraved things that your government committed are unmentionable, none of the ANC's responses actually come close. Why do you expect the oppressed to respond like saints?

I beg to differ:

ETA:

With our tyres and matches we will liberate this country ...

 

[Cray]

Actually the ANC themselves tended to kill those people..... traitors by association.

Not in this case, they were murdered by Craig Williamson who worked for the security police and got amnesty at the TRC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Williamson

 

[rambo919]

Not in this case, they were murdered by Craig Williamson who worked for the security police and got amnesty at the TRC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Williamson

It was a general thing, they used necklaces not as actual punishment but as implements of terror to literally scare up support.

 

[Hemi300c]

I don't have time for this - go through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission transcripts.

Only one sided just like the SAHRC