I cannot apologise for fighting against apartheid': Robert McBride defends Durban bombing

[Excalibur]

"The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices: submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means within our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom".

 

[Excalibur]

"In contrast to this highly disciplined and restrained approach to the use of violence, the South African regime committed atrocity after atrocity against civilian targets inside and outside the country, including supporting the war efforts of UNITA and Renamo, and massive raids against what were portrayed as ANC targets in neighbouring states such as Matola in 1991,1982 Maseru massacre, Gaborone in 1985, Lusaka in 1987, Harare and Bulawayo, to quote a few examples. Several of the casualties in these operations were nationals of the host countries. No distinction whatsoever was made between hard and soft targets - between MK operatives and unarmed refugees and civilians including women and children. "

 

[Excalibur]

This was the ANC's approach towards actions such as those undertaken by McBride.

In 1980 we signed the Geneva protocols and said that if we captured any enemy soldiers we would treat them as prisoners of war. The fact is we are not against civilians. We do not include them in our definition of the enemy. The ANC was non-violent for a whole decade in the face of violence against African civilians. What do we mean by civilians? It really means white civilians. No one refers to Africans as civilians and they have been victims of shootings all the time. Even children. They have been killed in the hundreds. Yet the word has not been used in all these years. Now it is being used, especially after the Pretoria [SAAF/HQ] bomb. But implicit in the practice of the South African regime is that when you shoot an African you are not killing a civilian. We don t want to kill civilians. But some will be hit, quite accidentally and regrettably. I am sure we are going to lose many civilians and many innocent people, as happens in any violent situation. (...)

We do not boast about it in the way the SA regime boasts about its killings...I think South Africa is going to be a very happy country one day and we will avoid all avoidable loss of life but - harsh though this sounds - we cannot allow the system to persist for the sake of saving a few lives. It is not so harsh when one considers how many lives apartheid has destroyed. "

Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK) operations report - The O'Malley Archives

The O'Malley Archives is the product of almost two decades of research and includes analyses, chronologies, historical documents, and interviews from the apartheid and post-apartheid eras

omalley.nelsonmandela.org

So the fact is the ANC maintained the moral high-ground throughout the struggle in spite of those civilian casualties.

 

[LazyLion]

I never sought your acceptance, I just stated my view like you are stating yours. I don't have to know about your particular family, the fact is that the innocent men, women and children maimed and killed during Apartheid, and those whose livelihoods were destroyed for generations to come and other evils committed were committed for the benefit of the minority. All the legislation created to exclude the majority of South Africans from education, jobs, healthcare, business etc were not done in a vacuum or just to punish the majority but to benefit the minority. All those benefits obtained from the blood that was spilled are still being enjoyed today and carry on to the next generation.

Who said anything about acceptance? I wasn't offering that to you. We knew about the evils of Apartheid and saw it as a crime against humanity, but that doesn't automatically mean that those opposing it were suddenly angels and could do no wrong. They did lots of wrong. This isn't just a cut and dried two sides only issue. It was an evil regime being opposed by equally evil men who were ALSO willing to kill main and torture to get their objectives. And their behaviour since then has only borne this out. They were far from saints. And there is no reason why they shouldn't bear the guilt for their actions.

I think you've got a very bigoted view if you think the oppressed just decided out of the blue to use "murder as a solution". You paint them as savages, again a hallmark of the brainwashing of the minority population by the then government. You somewhat spend a lot of time and energy lambasting those who were oppressed for their methods of resistance and much less on the oppressor.

You claim "benefit" and "advantage" and "privilege" and yet what the Whites in SA enjoyed was no different to what most advanced countries were enjoying. A stable middle class living style in a capatalistic system. It's not like they were more rich and wealthy than most other countries, so I'm not even sure where the "advantage" lies. But I will call anyone a savage who would cold bloodely murder an innocent person. The term applies to both blacks and whites from that time period. Nobody in this thread is excusing the oppressor. Many of us also had our run-ins with them. But we are also not so naive as to think that the ANC's method of " liberation" was the only one. In fact it wasn't even a liberation so much as a capitulation and withdrawal.

And like I always say even the devil's help would have been welcomed by South Africans in order to fight Apartheid, justifiably so.

And the devil's been in their back pocket ever since.

 

[rambo919]

No distinction whatsoever was made between hard and soft targets - between MK operatives and unarmed refugees and civilians including women and children. "

Of course no distinction was made, when any and everyone gets told to pick up guns and shoot you only an idiot would make distinctions.

 

[rambo919]

So the fact is the ANC maintained the moral high-ground throughout the struggle in spite of those civilian casualties.

Yes, they always sought the moral high ground with their propaganda...... pity they never followed through in practice though.

 

[rambo919]

And like I always say even the devil's help would have been welcomed by South Africans in order to fight Apartheid, justifiably so.

Yes the devil helped, and now he rules and things are worse.

 

[HBee]

"The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices: submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means within our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom".

Hit back at who? and what freedom do you speak of? You and you children have been enslaved by debt created by your liberators.

 

[Stonemason]

"In contrast to this highly disciplined and restrained approach to the use of violence, the South African regime committed atrocity after atrocity against civilian targets inside and outside the country, including supporting the war efforts of UNITA and Renamo, and massive raids against what were portrayed as ANC targets in neighbouring states such as Matola in 1991,1982 Maseru massacre, Gaborone in 1985, Lusaka in 1987, Harare and Bulawayo, to quote a few examples. Several of the casualties in these operations were nationals of the host countries. No distinction whatsoever was made between hard and soft targets - between MK operatives and unarmed refugees and civilians including women and children. "

I do not know where you sourced the above from, but judging from all the adjectives used, it is clear that it was not written by an objective person. Most probably from sahistory which, as I have said before, is full of half truths mixed with a lot of lies.

 

[Excalibur]

I do not know where you sourced the above from, but judging from all the adjectives used, it is clear that it was not written by an objective person. Most probably from sahistory which, as I have said before, is full of half truths mixed with a lot of lies.

Go to Lesotho and you will find graves of Basotho civilians killed, not to mention South Africa. Do we really have Apartheid apologists in 2019?

 

[Stonemason]

Go to Pretoria, Amanzimtoti, Grahamstown and pretty much everywhere in South Africa and you will find the graves of the civilians killed by the ANC who had a "highly disciplined and restrained approach to the use of violence"

Ask the people of Namibia who lost their children who were being kidnapped in large numbers by Swapo (in some cases assisted by the ANC) and taken into Angola where they were abused and forced into duty as unwilling soldiers and prostitutes.

No one will deny that civilians died at the hands of the then South African security forces as collateral damage but to say it was a deliberate policy is very uninformed and bullsh*t.

There was a war. Now it is over. Stop trying to fight the war all over again.

 

[rambo919]

Go to Lesotho and you will find graves of Basotho civilians killed, not to mention South Africa. Do we really have Apartheid apologists in 2019?

Talking of "apartheid apologists" already shows how biased you are mate.

 

[rambo919]

There was a war. Now it is over. Stop trying to fight the war all over again.

That's not what they do, they never actually stopped fighting, they just stopped mostly using violence, their revolution is still going.

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

We don t want to kill civilians. But some will be hit, quite accidentally and regrettably.

Do they really believe their bs ....... a shopping mall full of women and children doesn't equal that bs statement. Ffs neither side can claim any moral high ground when it came to killing non-combatants. Apartheid apologists and terrorist apologists are one and the same.

 

[Polymathic]

Clickbait media going to clickbait

 

[Gnarls]

Who said anything about acceptance? I wasn't offering that to you. We knew about the evils of Apartheid and saw it as a crime against humanity, but that doesn't automatically mean that those opposing it were suddenly angels and could do no wrong. They did lots of wrong. This isn't just a cut and dried two sides only issue. It was an evil regime being opposed by equally evil men who were ALSO willing to kill main and torture to get their objectives. And their behaviour since then has only borne this out. They were far from saints. And there is no reason why they shouldn't bear the guilt for their actions.

You speak like the 'armed resistance' was plan A. Madiba too, was a radical in his youth. Furthermore, how do you reconcile the actions of a soldier in war?

You claim "benefit" and "advantage" and "privilege" and yet what the Whites in SA enjoyed was no different to what most advanced countries were enjoying. A stable middle class living style in a capatalistic system. It's not like they were more rich and wealthy than most other countries, so I'm not even sure where the "advantage" lies. But I will call anyone a savage who would cold bloodely murder an innocent person. The term applies to both blacks and whites from that time period. Nobody in this thread is excusing the oppressor. Many of us also had our run-ins with them. But we are also not so naive as to think that the ANC's method of " liberation" was the only one. In fact it wasn't even a liberation so much as a capitulation and withdrawal.

Dude, black people in this country were treated as sub-human. Just cause everyone is doing it don't make it right.

And the devil's been in their back pocket ever since.

Whataboutism.

Cheers

 

[rambo919]

Dude, black people in this country were treated as sub-human. Just cause everyone is doing it don't make it right.

And that makes atrocity ok? And you dare complain about whataboutism? Your arguments are empty.

 

[Gnarls]

And that makes atrocity ok? And you dare complain about whataboutism? Your arguments are empty.

Enjoy beating that strawman. I never said that. Just trying to bring perspective.

 

[rambo919]

Enjoy beating that strawman. I never said that. Just trying to bring perspective.

A false perspective yes, there is no justification for ANC atrocities, no whataboutisms that will stick, nothing. And I'm not even talking about what they did to whites, they did worse to blacks.

 

[Gnarls]

A false perspective yes, there is no justification for ANC atrocities, no whataboutisms that will stick, nothing. And I'm not even talking about what they did to whites, they did worse to blacks.

Your strawman again. I'm only pointing out that those events didn't happen in a vacuum.