I Know Someone Heavily and Consistently Evading Tax

garp

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Do you pay for insurance and medical aid? Why?
Um.. precisely because I know my tax money in this country isn't going to get me and my family a damn thing if I croak or need hospital. It's the same reason I'm funding my own retirement. If you see tax as some kind of insurance policy you are deluded, unless you're ok with living on R1200 pm one day when you're old.

So would you be happy to pay tax if the party of your choice was elected?
I can't tell if your issue is with contributing to a government or contributing to the government in power in SA right now.
No, you're being obtuse. I pay a ton of tax. I get zero back. What don't you understand about that? And what do you think is fair about that? You sound more like you're trying to bait me on something here?
 

acidrain

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Lol, I normally move over. Unless it's some idiot doing 180 who's caught up to me on my ass and is flashing the kak out of me within 2 seconds of catching up. Then I turn the radio up and take another sip of coffee from my ignorance-is-bliss mug.
Yeah, those that sit on my arse can wait until I'm ready. Don't see why I should adhere to road etiquette if they aren't willing to do the same.

@OP I'd report the guy to SARS. Chances are he isn't even paying over the tax of his staff which will land them in a tough spot if SARS audits them.
 
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Daruk

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Um.. precisely because I know my tax money in this country isn't going to get me and my family a damn thing if I croak or need hospital. It's the same reason I'm funding my own retirement. If you see tax as some kind of insurance policy you are deluded, unless you're ok with living on R1200 pm one day when you're old.
Short answer is you pay because you want to benefit from the system if and when you need it. You leave that money with a firm that manages it on your behalf for a service. You don't get a perfect service from them and probably don't completely understand what is covered and what is not, but you trust them. Great.

No, you're being obtuse. I pay a ton of tax. I get zero back. What don't you understand about that? And what do you think is fair about that? You sound more like you're trying to bait me on something here?
Baiting you? Why the insecurity?
You have no understanding of things if you think you get nothing for your tax. However bad the current government is, you're not getting nothing. I'm suggesting you should separate the two issues of 1) the current government is corrupt and 2) paying taxes is for your benefit. All governments have corruption, it's the level that differs. No corruption is acceptable, but how do you think government should do this? Ask yourself what you think this country would look like without government collecting tax. Tell us how you would run it... or are you an anarchist and think governments should dissolve and leave individuals to do what they like?

Actually, how about this question:
Why do you still live in SA and pay tax that you get nothing for...?
 
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garp

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Short answer is you pay because you want to benefit from the system if and when you need it.
You have no understanding of things if you can't see how a private voluntary medical aid or insurance arrangement where my benefits are contractually guaranteed is different from enforced government taxation, where it is highly unlikely that I will receive any portion back if and when I need it, and even if I did it would like be a vastly inferior service compared to what that money could have bought.

You seem to be arguing that I should pay taxes because in return I can get social welfare, except the argument doesn't work when you effectively don't have any of those nice benefits you get in other countries. It's one thing to pay high income taxes in Europe and get free healthcare and a liveable pension for life in return, entirely another to just take the money and either steal it, exclude me from the benefits based on income or race, or offer such dismal services that nobody who can afford not to would use them anyway.

You have no understanding of things if you think you get nothing for your tax.
Suuuure. I'm so thick I can't see that I'm paying the government many hundreds of thousands of rands every year and still paying directly for my own healthcare, retirement, family's education, security, roads, electricity, water, etc etc.

Point out one single benefit that accrues from government to a middle class South African that they are not already paying for directly or via something other than income tax.
 

Daruk

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You have no understanding of things if you can't see how a private voluntary medical aid or insurance arrangement where my benefits are contractually guaranteed is different from enforced government taxation, where it is highly unlikely that I will receive any portion back if and when I need it, and even if I did it would like be a vastly inferior service compared to what that money could have bought.
Pointless arguing with you on that one it seems.

You seem to be arguing that I should pay taxes because in return I can get social welfare
When did I mention social welfare? Good grief lol.
except the argument doesn't work when you effectively don't have any of those nice benefits you get in other countries. It's one thing to pay high income taxes in Europe and get free healthcare and a liveable pension for life in return, entirely another to just take the money and either steal it, exclude me from the benefits based on income or race, or offer such dismal services that nobody who can afford not to would use them anyway.
Why does everyone assume tax is only for welfare and healthcare?


Suuuure. I'm so thick I can't see that I'm paying the government many hundreds of thousands of rands every year and still paying directly for my own healthcare, retirement, family's education, security, roads, electricity, water, etc etc.

Point out one single benefit that accrues from government to a middle class South African that they are not already paying for directly or via something other than income tax.
You went to a public school? Some of that was paid for by your parents income tax. You want public hospitals? That's your tax. You want a police force? Your taxes. Now your taxes can't pay for everything, but the alternative is to tax you differently than via your income, which I happen to think is a good idea, regardless, you benefit whether you believe it or not.

Again, why live in SA and pay taxes when you claim to get nothing for it? Why not just move? You could save a ton (your own words).
 

garp

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Again, why live in SA and pay taxes when you claim to get nothing for it? Why not just move? You could save a ton (your own words).
Because this is my home (and has been home to my family for over three centuries) and I support elderly family here. But there will come a time when I may do just that, as many others have already. And it will be interesting to see just how this country survives as the pool of productive people (from all demographics) who are paying all the taxes gradually dwindles.

Any fool can see that a situation where 1.7 million people pay 80% of income tax in a country with a population of 56 million is not sustainable (https://africacheck.org/reports/1-7-million-people-pay-80-sas-income-tax/). And a good part of that 3% belong to the demographic that is also being told daily that they stole land, suffer from "white privilege" and must go to the back of the queue when it comes to education and jobs. They want 3% of the people to pay most of the tax, but then they also want to spit in their face? It's a fantastic plan. Will work out well.
 
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Daruk

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Any fool can see that a situation where 1.7 million people pay 80% of income tax in a country with a population of 56 million is not sustainable
I have no issue with that point, but that's a very different point to 'I get nothing for my tax'.
And a good part of that 3% belong to the demographic that is also being told daily that they stole land, suffer from "white privilege" and must go to the back of the queue when it comes to education and jobs. They want 3% of the people to pay most of the tax, but then they also want to spit in their face? It's fantastic plan. Will work out well.
Whatever your beef, it's irrelevant to the point of 'my tax goes nowhere'. Do you realise what a mess this place could be if nobody pays tax? Have you spent much time outside SA - in worse off countries I mean? Even in Liberia and Afghanistan, people benefit from taxpayers contributions - perhaps less than here, but I can assure you, they still benefit.
 

Botha22

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Any fool can see that a situation where 1.7 million people pay 80% of income tax in a country with a population of 56 million is not sustainable (https://africacheck.org/reports/1-7-million-people-pay-80-sas-income-tax/). And a good part of that 3% belong to the demographic that is also being told daily that they stole land, suffer from "white privilege" and must go to the back of the queue when it comes to education and jobs. They want 3% of the people to pay most of the tax, but then they also want to spit in their face? It's fantastic plan. Will work out well.
The fact that only 3% of the population pays most of the tax is a strong case for transformation. Get the other 97% contributing to the economy.
 

garp

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The fact that only 3% of the population pays most of the tax is a strong case for transformation. Get the other 97% contributing to the economy.
Indeed. However, there is very little hope of that with the NDR as ANC policy.
 

Daruk

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The fact that only 3% of the population pays most of the tax is a strong case for transformation. Get the other 97% contributing to the economy.
This is partly why I'm in favour of upping VAT and doing away with income tax. Have a larger basket of VAT free items to alleviate the burden on the poor and have everyone including Shebeen owners, Taxi owner and the like contributing fairly.
 

upup

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He/She runs a business and getting +/- R50 000 a week. There is no proof since customers don't get a receipt and he never issues one even if you insist.

I don't want to go into the specifics because he might be alarmed.

I need to report him to SARS because:

1. What he/she is doing is a crime
2. Sometimes it's difficult to prove to him/her that you paid because there is no receipt
3. Not a nice person (pays his/her two security guards R2 500 per month after working 12 hours a day/night six days a week, to accommodate a day off there is a day they work 24 hrs)

How do I report him to sars, follow up on progress and still remain anonymous?

This is a slam dunk case for the Specialised Commercial Crimes Court.
I heard Sars once spy on a person's house, watch his cars/ lifestyle, then his income, confront him and make a case. In the zuma years, confront him, oh his is a anc guy, leave him alone.
 

lexor

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Idio
He/She runs a business and getting +/- R50 000 a week. There is no proof since customers don't get a receipt and he never issues one even if you insist.

I don't want to go into the specifics because he might be alarmed.

I need to report him to SARS because:

1. What he/she is doing is a crime
2. Sometimes it's difficult to prove to him/her that you paid because there is no receipt
3. Not a nice person (pays his/her two security guards R2 500 per month after working 12 hours a day/night six days a week, to accommodate a day off there is a day they work 24 hrs)

How do I report him to sars, follow up on progress and still remain anonymous?

This is a slam dunk case for the Specialised Commercial Crimes Court.
Good for you - report the idiot.

If everybody just pay their due we would all benefit.
 

MightyQuin

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They can do all that without income taxes. It’s a little known fact that income tax is a relatively recent invention. Prior to the 20th century governments funded themselves on customs and excise and various license fees, tolls, etc. Income and other revenue taxes were originally dreamed up for one reason only - to fund war.
1861 is not THAT recent....
 

grim101

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Jun 25, 2013
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I pay tax against my will and sleep well every night. Except feeling unsave because my tax money is wasted.

I don't report people evading tax, because they will get they're day somehow.
 

Lupus

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Good luck reporting it to SARS, also apart of me is screw them. Lost 41% of a nice bonus I got for basically nothing in return.
 

Bobbin

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Oct 22, 2009
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And you think all tax should be voluntary? Where has that worked exactly?
The literal translation of the word tax is that it is compulsory. You impose it, you don't ask for it. So you cannot use the word tax and voluntary together - it is an illogical application of the word 'tax' :) Just pointing out the obvious I guess. A tax free system would rely heavily on the free market. Not saying it'd work or not or merely be very different, but that is simply the gist of it.

A better question to ask (or alternative phrasing) might be, would the free market in place of tax serve a modern society as or more effectively? So the free market would entail what you were alluding to, some form of voluntary contribution or investment of funds into public infrastructure or services. (Which is what I assume you were saying in short oxymoron form "voluntary tax").

I guess people don't contribute without incentive except in cases of charity and good will. So all public infrastructure/services would either need to be replaced with a private form or be profit driven for investment, as I doubt good will would cover it.

For example in the case of roads, petrol stations profit from those the most (Need roads to use petrol - derp) - so they might take some road infrastructure into their portfolio.
In the case of police, this could perhaps be privatized. I like the idea of safety/security being competitively incentivized.
In the case of medical, well medical aid and trainee doctors and tiered products and charity are all considerations. While the free market might initially block lower income brackets from treatment it also tends to innovate and make treatments less costly as far as I'm aware. Financial aid and higher earnings potential to recover from debt might also be more available.
In the case of the law system (courts, prisons etc...), this is one area I would be interested to hear how it could work and how public disputes would be settled.

I suppose we could brainstorm all kinds of potential solutions if entertaining free market alternatives - its kind of fun actually. But that's what the free market encourages. The only catches are profitability or sustainability, the latter being kinda hellishly important anyway - which it seems we tend to disregard a lot.

Anyway I am personally more in favor of a VAT only system than income tax - if tax is absolutely necessary. But this is a layman view only. I also suspect the tax system along with fiat and reserve borrowing is all broken, but I lack the insight to be sure.

Makes me think of the phrase, "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy". I feel the current tax system threatens the same spiral. And the welfare system too, while we're at it - yay population :(
 
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