Immigrating to another country

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GreenerPastures

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Hi guys,

I have an account here that I have used for a long time but for the time being I would like to keep my dreams of leaving SA anonymous for now (people I know would be able to link this post to me if I used my usual MyBB account).

I am a software developer with +-3 years experience and a Bsc(Hons). I would like to move out of South Africa and I've been considering the usual options of Canada, NZ and AUS.

The problem I'm experiencing is that my research into the job markets in these countries are coming up with mixed results. Many of the results go on about how programmers are in high demand but it feels like just as many are reporting on some job shortage crisis where even the locals can't find jobs.

Does anyone here know of anyone that has recently moved overseas as a programmer? If so, which country did they move to and do you know if they are doing well there?

I'm currently working with Java in one of the big corporates so I don't have any work experience using any niche fields like big data, bio-metrics or machine learning.
 
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cguy

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I can't say that I've ever heard of any job shortages for programmers in any of those countries, so I expect that your fears are unfounded (can you post any links claiming such shortages?).

Something that does tend to be somewhat true though is that the demand and supply ratio tends to shift for different types of development in the more popular 1st world countries. For example, one may have some difficulty finding a job as a front-end web developer in the US, not because there isn't a huge market for the work, but because there is such a large supply of people who can do it. Similarly, I and most of my colleagues couldn't really find comparable work in SA, since the demand isn't there. I suggest that you just apply everywhere you can, and see if anyone bites - this is pretty much the only answer that counts.

If you don't hear from anyone, I suggest attempting some sort of specialization to get noticed. Ideally, try changing the work you do in your job in order to skill up on something that is more relevant. Failing that, it may be worthwhile to move companies to obtain a more attractive skill profile.
 
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O

Oppiekoffie

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a bit off the point, but Canada. Aus and NZL is more in line with our culture. Sadly it seems the same problems here are experienced there, without "you are white" Managers and recruiters have no idea what they want.
 
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shauntir

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I now live and work in Melbourne, Australia. I have been here for over 12 months now.

There is a huge demand for *good quality* developers/engineers. However, there's also a large supply being brought over from other countries which does in-fact make the market difficult at times. This is evident from cguy's observations above.

To truly stand out, you need to be at an expert level in both your industry domain as well as technical domain.

Also, take into account cost of living factors before you dive head-first.
 
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GreenerPastures

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cguy said:
I can't say that I've ever heard of any job shortages for programmers in any of those countries, so I expect that your fears are unfounded (can you post any links claiming such shortages?).

Something that does tend to be somewhat true though is that the demand and supply ratio tends to shift for different types of development in the more popular 1st world countries. For example, one may have some difficulty finding a job as a front-end web developer in the US, not because there isn't a huge market for the work, but because there is such a large supply of people who can do it. Similarly, I and most of my colleagues couldn't really find comparable work in SA, since the demand isn't there. I suggest that you just apply everywhere you can, and see if anyone bites - this is pretty much the only answer that counts.

If you don't hear from anyone, I suggest attempting some sort of specialization to get noticed. Ideally, try changing the work you do in your job in order to skill up on something that is more relevant. Failing that, it may be worthwhile to move companies to obtain a more attractive skill profile.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response, I have found a link that shows an article that highlights the need for developers in Canada but the comments show many people complaining that they are unable to find Jobs. It may not be the best article as it is a bit old but there is a comment from a year ago complaining about the difficulty of finding a job. I think this may be due to them wanting jobs in a field where the supply is saturated as you mentioned.

http://www.itworldcanada.com/articl...ple-to-fill-these-it-positions-by-2019/287535

Another difficulty I have seen while reading the comments of those trying to immigrate to one of these countries is that a job offer makes getting a work/express entry visa much easier but that most employers want you to have a visa already when applying. This could be due to the fact that those complaining about this are also in the saturated fields where it is easy to find candidates locally.

Oppiekoffie said:
a bit off the point, but Canada. Aus and NZL is more in line with our culture. Sadly it seems the same problems here are experienced there, without "you are white" Managers and recruiters have no idea what they want.
Click to expand...

I think the issue may be that with all the cheap labour being imported the perception has become that a lot of immigrants are of low quality.

shauntir said:
I now live and work in Melbourne, Australia. I have been here for over 12 months now.

There is a huge demand for *good quality* developers/engineers. However, there's also a large supply being brought over from other countries which does in-fact make the market difficult at times. This is evident from cguy's observations above.

To truly stand out, you need to be at an expert level in both your industry domain as well as technical domain.

Also, take into account cost of living factors before you dive head-first.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm hoping the fact that I do not have a family I need to support there will make the cost of living factor a bit easier. I also do not have any debt that I need to tie up here and have been saving for the costs of leaving. From my research though it does look like New Zealand has what looks like to be the most challenging cost to salary ratio.

How did you find the process of getting a job/visa and then finally making the move? Are you happy with your decision?
 
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kappwj

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Here is my experience.
We as a family (wife and 2 y/o boy) have decided at the end of 2015 to immigrate. We decided on Canada, for 2 reasons: Quality of life there and: have a friend that immigrated there 4 years ago and he settled in very nicely and encouraged us to look at Canada.

We started the process in Jan 2016. We have decided to make use of a well know firm (SA owner) that resides in Canada. He has been helping people for 14 years and has all the required qualifications etc. We met with him and he did his assessment of our "profile". They take age, qualifications, work experience, language score (test needs to be taken), criminal record etc. into account. He works out a score and then tells you whether or not he thinks you would be a good candidate. If you then agree to proceed he sends you a contract and you pay them to start with the process.

The process takes long. We only got into the immigration pool middle of October 2016. Stuff that takes long is the accreditation of your qualification, police clearance (for every country you spend more than 6 months), appointment for language test.

During this period, he told me to start to look for work. If you find an employer willing to give you a job offer you can go over with a work permit (have been told that this can be done within a month). When you have a valid job offer (whether or not you are in Canada) your chances of getting an invitation to apply for permanent residence is much higher, almost guaranteed. The problem is getting a job offer. I have applied for nearly 200 positions (been a developer for almost 4 years and before that field service technician for bio metric access systems before that) and only got about 3 responses and not one of them lead to something. I have been told that employers are not willing to go that route because they are not really sure of how it works and it costs them quite a bit of money. That said, I have also been told that it not impossible and there are quite a few people has managed to go over with a job offer and work permit.

We were fortunate enough to get an invitation to apply for permanent residence without a job offer (April this year). No one really knows how you get selected but the way I understand it is they select a list of shortages and select people in the immigration pool based on their skill for the shortages. This change from draw to draw (they draw people from the pool).

Also have to note that the costs involved are high. We estimate it to cost us about 80k by the end of the process. That excludes ticket etc. to go over.

This is just my experience, by no means an expert on anything. If all goes well, we should be there by the end of April 2018.
 
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HibiscusTunes

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kappwj said:
Also have to note that the costs involved are high. We estimate it to cost us about 80k by the end of the process. That excludes ticket etc. to go over.
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Much cheaper than I thought it would be. What will you do with your local assets?
 
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cguy

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GreenerPastures said:
Thanks for the response, I have found a link that shows an article that highlights the need for developers in Canada but the comments show many people complaining that they are unable to find Jobs. It may not be the best article as it is a bit old but there is a comment from a year ago complaining about the difficulty of finding a job. I think this may be due to them wanting jobs in a field where the supply is saturated as you mentioned.

http://www.itworldcanada.com/articl...ple-to-fill-these-it-positions-by-2019/287535

Another difficulty I have seen while reading the comments of those trying to immigrate to one of these countries is that a job offer makes getting a work/express entry visa much easier but that most employers want you to have a visa already when applying. This could be due to the fact that those complaining about this are also in the saturated fields where it is easy to find candidates locally.
Click to expand...

The ones complaining are making some pretty strange claims. Taking a quick look, these stuck out:

I've got to call BS to this as well, there are lots of senior IT people looking for work in Canada so where are these jobs or what exactly are they looking for that these folks don't have?
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There are a lot of "senior IT" people who are crap, or who think that they should get paid exorbitant salaries just because they are older. So some of these people simply won't be able to get jobs without difficulty - the fact that there are jobs available, doesn't mean that these companies are willing to fill them with just anyone, or that they'll pay 2x the salary when they can hire someone younger to do the job for half the price. The guy who posted the above calls himself "BearThunder".

know how you feel. I have 5 years' experience in desktop support. I was laid off in March of 2015 and I'm still looking for another IT job almost a year later.
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Desktop support is not the most lucrative field - it's also something that one can max out after just a few years, and there is a lot of competition - it doesn't matter if there is a running count of X of these jobs, when there is a running count of X times 10 people applying for them.

Even top grads of some of the nation's finest IT, CS, and engineering programs can't get firms to respond to their resumes, nevermind interview them, hire them, or give them any meaningful feedback.
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I wonder how this study was done? I strongly doubt it exists. How do they even find the top grads? That info isn't public.

It is also amusing that half the posts appear to be people from other countries thinking that people will just email them and ask them to come and work in Canada.
 
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GreenerPastures

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cguy said:
The ones complaining are making some pretty strange claims. Taking a quick look, these stuck out:



There are a lot of "senior IT" people who are crap, or who think that they should get paid exorbitant salaries just because they are older. So some of these people simply won't be able to get jobs without difficulty - the fact that there are jobs available, doesn't mean that these companies are willing to fill them with just anyone, or that they'll pay 2x the salary when they can hire someone younger to do the job for half the price. The guy who posted the above calls himself "BearThunder".



Desktop support is not the most lucrative field - it's also something that one can max out after just a few years, and there is a lot of competition - it doesn't matter if there is a running count of X of these jobs, when there is a running count of X times 10 people applying for them.



I wonder how this study was done? I strongly doubt it exists. How do they even find the top grads? That info isn't public.

It is also amusing that half the posts appear to be people from other countries thinking that people will just email them and ask them to come and work in Canada.
Click to expand...

Yeah, looking at the posts I didn't think they were of the highest quality. I was just nervous that all potential immigrants would be put in to the same basket.
 
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^^vampire^^

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I moved to Melbourne March 2016 and got a job the next day as a software developer. There is a software developer shortage here just like everywhere else in the world but they do neglect to mention "quality" developer.

The main problem is that people think being a software developer gets you boatloads of cash, and it can, but you have to be good. I noticed in the last few years before leaving SA that companies were starting to take advantage of recent graduates by offering unpaid internships. Some companies do the same here or they want a junior dev with min 2 years exp. I had the same issue 10 years ago when I completed my qualification. I've always maintained that as soon as you let your skills get rusty or dont keep up to date you are dead in the water, it is even more true here.

I had to take a salary knock when I got here but after a little over a year I'm earning more than I thought I would ever. If you're good at what you do you will have no problem getting a job but you need to be able to prove it. Also, because of the location and people you are competing against your skills need to be far more up to date than what you can get away with in SA. I found very few companies using AWS or Angular in SA where many use it here. There is also a very big difference between front end dev here and backend dev and many companies you will be doing exclusively one or the other. I am currently employed as a full stack dev and you are expected to be truly full stack. I work daily indepth with AngularJS, Angular, AWS, C#, WebAPI, MVC, JS, jQuery, React, Bootstrap, EF, HTML5 and HTML APIs etc etc etc and am expected to know them well. I can see that many of my dev friends in SA have either never touched some of these techs (especially the likes of AWS as it makes no sense in SA) or are looking at them but know next to nothing.

It can be intimidating but one thing I can say is that it forces you into a position of having to learn these things which only makes you better and more employable. There is also a strong online SA presence with people willing to help network to get you a job. Also on the point of work opportunities I was in the market from about 3 weeks ago. It took the recruiters about 1 week to catch wind and then the harassment started. 3-4 days later I had 3 offers on the table, 2 coming from just meeting the people at the company and them not even gauging my skills.
 
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cguy

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halfmoonforever said:
I've also been looking to go, with 17 years of programming experience, unfortunately no degree. So not eligible.

This might change things a little though, came into effect 12 June 2017: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...r-specialized-foreign-talent/article35280516/
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If you have relevant documented experience, you may be able to get into certain countries without a degree. The US for example allows 12 years of such experience in lieu of a degree. You do need to find a firm willing to sponsor you though.
 
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halfmoonforever

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cguy said:
If you have relevant documented experience, you may be able to get into certain countries without a degree. The US for example allows 12 years of such experience in lieu of a degree. You do need to find a firm willing to sponsor you though.
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Thanks. Currently tapping on all my contacts to see what is out there. 1 company I worked for in the past, coincidentally, opened up new offices in Vancouver, unfortunately nothing they can offer me currently.

If I can find a company to sponsor me in the US, I can find one that can do the same with Canada. Kind of have my heart set on that place at the moment (yea I know...)
 
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cguy

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TheGuy said:
I've got Australian PR without a degree.
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FYI, in 2012 56% of adult migrants to Australia had degrees (this includes spouses of skilled workers). In the US 99% of H1B workers (skilled workers, excluding spouses) had degrees. I know one SAffer who fell into the 1% without.
 
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^^vampire^^

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