Internal CDC document warns delta variant more infectious, can spread among vaccinated people - report

Forum Reader

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Agreed but it's still a variable that's unaccounted for but quite important. And herein lies the problem, only if the groups were randomly selected could the data be valid. That's not usually how clinical efficacy trials are done. Pharmaceutical companies have an interest in trying to overstate efficacy. This is done from the outset by selecting individuals that are the most likely to show an effect from the drug and at the same time least likely to show any adverse reactions.

Also what exactly is serious illness? These are mostly young people where serious illness is minimal.

They used the FDA definition of severe Covid:

Of 31 cases of severe, FDA-defined COVID-19, with onset post-dose, 30 occurred in placebo recipients, corresponding to 96.7% VE (95% CI 80.3-99.9) against severe COVID-19

FDA definition from here:

Severe COVID-19

• Positive testing by standard RT-PCR assay or an equivalent test

• Symptoms suggestive of severe systemic illness with COVID-19, which could include any symptom of moderate illness or shortness of breath at rest, or respiratory distress

• Clinical signs indicative of severe systemic illness with COVID-19, such as respiratory rate ≥ 30 per minute, heart rate ≥ 125 per minute, SpO2 ≤ 93% on room air at sea level or PaO2/FiO2 < 300


Also looking at the age group breakdown, there were actually a fair bit of older people. About 40% over 55 and 60% below. Though they were mostly healthy people with few or no comorbidities, hence very few deaths, vaccine or placebo. However 30x more severe Covid-19 in the placebo group.
 
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Swa

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That's just the thing though. How do we actually test if something works without having a placebo group? That's probably why they stayed away from older people and more people with comorbidities. To give some 70 year old a placebo when they actually have a decent chance of death with Covid is a pretty bad thing to do. If they do, a portion of those 70 year olds are sentenced to death (thought they may have died anyway if they didn't take part in the trials). If they don't test the older people, then we end up in the situation we are now where the trials didn't really give us useful info about death rates and vaccine usefulness in older people. All those trials really say is that younger people or people without comorbidities who take the vaccine don't get seriously ill.
And this is where the current system is insufficient. In many cases you can draw equally valid conclusions by giving an entire group a drug and comparing it to a study group. It may even give better results as it gives real world data. The current system however insists on RCTs within such a rigid framework that there's no room for creativity to solve a problem. It inadvertently also allows for bias through closed selection criteria.

Yes there's an issue you can't give everybody an untested drug but to withhold a potentially lifesaving treatment from a specific group is an ethical dilemma and against the Nuremberg code. For instance when you test a cancer treatment you do not know if it is going to be effective or not so it's a gamble either way but instead of using a placebo the standard method is to use an existing treatment to compare it against. I do not know why with Covid there is suddenly this insistence on RCTs that put people's lives at risk against every ethical code of practice.
 

Swa

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They used the FDA definition of severe Covid:



FDA definition from here:




Also looking at the age group breakdown, there were actually a fair bit of older people. About 40% over 55 and 60% below. Though they were mostly healthy people with few or no comorbidities.
So not necessarily ICU events or even hospitalisations. It's also only a handful of cases.
 

NarrowBandFtw

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Neither have they deduced that vaccines are the cause of death in the other 86% of cases.
Here's the full piece. Important bit highlighted. There's another 81% that you need to add on to the 14% you quoted. There's not enough data for the 81% to say whether the vaccine was a factor in the death.
absolutely, the important bit for me is that there is a huge portion that could go either way

most people believe / assume 100% of post-vaccine deaths cannot possibly ever in a million years be in any way vaccine related, 86% unaccounted for tells me that is a silly assumption to make ... but will you ever read that in the mainstream media? ... of course not

and it is certainly worth repeating ad nauseam: this same level of rigour is not applied when marking a death as covid related
 

Forum Reader

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absolutely, the important bit for me is that there is a huge portion that could go either way

most people believe / assume 100% of post-vaccine deaths cannot possibly ever in a million years be in any way vaccine related, 86% unaccounted for tells me that is a silly assumption to make ... but will you ever read that in the mainstream media? ... of course not

and it is certainly worth repeating ad nauseam: this same level of rigour is not applied when marking a death as covid related

I think that study is not really that useful. They can only tell what happened in 14%+5% of cases. For the other 81% they can't. Imagine doing a test and you can only answer 19% of the questions. That's a fail.
 

NarrowBandFtw

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I think that study is not really that useful. They can only tell what happened in 14%+5% of cases. For the other 81% they can't. Imagine doing a test and you can only answer 19% of the questions. That's a fail.
indeed, and given that the study was sponsored and co-authored by Pfizer themselves who are incentivised to demonstrate safety beyond any doubt ... I'm sceptical about whether the study was accidentally vs intentionally "not really that useful" ...
 

Cage Rattler

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German colleague mentioned to me a couple of day ago apparently some controversial statements by the University of Heidelberg chief pathologist in German press about him stating 30% to 40% of deaths from vaccination in the autopsies that he performed.
 

Geoff.D

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German colleague mentioned to me a couple of day ago apparently some controversial statements by the University of Heidelberg chief pathologist in German press about him stating 30% to 40% of deaths from vaccination in the autopsies that he performed.
That raises a red flag for me. Why the silence on our own 28 deaths? Where are the autopsy results?
 

Rocco1

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German colleague mentioned to me a couple of day ago apparently some controversial statements by the University of Heidelberg chief pathologist in German press about him stating 30% to 40% of deaths from vaccination in the autopsies that he performed.

 

lumeer

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Remember how they halted the J&J vaccine because seven out of a million people got blood clots from it? Now do you really think that if the vaccines were the cause of 30% to 40% of deaths of people who died within two weeks of vaccination, that this would not be acted upon?
 

lumeer

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absolutely, the important bit for me is that there is a huge portion that could go either way

most people believe / assume 100% of post-vaccine deaths cannot possibly ever in a million years be in any way vaccine related, 86% unaccounted for tells me that is a silly assumption to make ... but will you ever read that in the mainstream media? ... of course not

and it is certainly worth repeating ad nauseam: this same level of rigour is not applied when marking a death as covid related
If I may ask, have you been vaccinated, or do you plan on getting vaccinated?
 

lumeer

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That raises a red flag for me. Why the silence on our own 28 deaths? Where are the autopsy results?
The reason you know about this is because SAHPRA announced *in parliament* that they were investigating the matter. The story was widely reported on in the popular press. That's not silence.
 

Swa

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Remember how they halted the J&J vaccine because seven out of a million people got blood clots from it? Now do you really think that if the vaccines were the cause of 30% to 40% of deaths of people who died within two weeks of vaccination, that this would not be acted upon?
Which is strange as they claimed it couldn't necessarily be attributed to the vaccines yet there's all these other cases where they didn't act in the same manner. Maybe because Covid itself causes blood clots?
 

buka001

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An all too familiar anti-vaxxer argument, seems like it didn't work out for him.

A BOURNEMOUTH solicitor has reportedly died with Covid after refusing to get the vaccine.

It has been reported that Leslie Lawrenson, 58, died at his home address in Bournemouth in July 2.

His partner, Amanda, told the BBC he made a “terrible mistake” and thought the vaccine was too “experimental”.

She said: “I feel incredibly foolish. Les died unnecessarily.

“It was a daily thing that he said to us: 'You don't need to have it, you'll be fine, just be careful.'

"He said to me: 'It's a gene thing, an experimental thing. You're putting something in your body that hasn't been thoroughly tested.'
 
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