International COVID-19 Updates & Discussion 2

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Paulsie

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If you actually read the article, it is not so simple:
I actually did read it in detail, but do not agree with it (not only because it was written by the BBC).
There is plenty of research and data showing antibodies are only a small part of the immune system as a whole and as such, the decline of antibodies does not mean a thing.

What the article puts across is that antibody decline = suscebility to re infection. That is what I do not agree with.
 

Paulsie

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The researchers further note that only surveying a population for antibodies will underestimate the extent of population-level immunity. A very important and positive paper.
@Gordon_R an interesting article with a link to research paper relating to T cells and antibodies
 

Gordon_R

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I actually did read it in detail, but do not agree with it (not only because it was written by the BBC).
There is plenty of research and data showing antibodies are only a small part of the immune system as a whole and as such, the decline of antibodies does not mean a thing.

What the article puts across is that antibody decline = suscebility to re infection. That is what I do not agree with.

I trust a professor of immunology, quoted by the BBC, more than your opinion...

If there are no antibodies in circulation, it takes time for the T-cells to kick into action. During this stage re-infection can occur. Basic immunology. Even I know that...

P.S. Rather post in this thread: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/antibodies-fall-rapidly-after-infection.1108696/
 

tetrasect

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I trust a professor of immunology, quoted by the BBC, more than your opinion...

If there are no antibodies in circulation, it takes time for the T-cells to kick into action. During this stage re-infection can occur. Basic immunology. Even I know that...

P.S. Rather post in this thread: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/antibodies-fall-rapidly-after-infection.1108696/

Yeah but your body will start producing antibodies the instant it detects the virus and you're extremely unlikely to have any serious symptoms.

We don't walk around with a mass of antibodies for every virus that we have ever come in contact with but we do have T-cells that give the signal to start producing them.
 

Paulsie

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Several studies have shown that people infected with Covid-19 tend to have T cells that can target the virus, regardless of whether they have experienced symptoms. So far, so normal. But scientists have also recently discovered that some people can test negative for antibodies against Covid-19 and positive for T cells that can identify the virus. This has led to suspicions that some level of immunity against the disease might be twice as common as was previously thought.

Most bizarrely of all, when researchers tested blood samples taken years before the pandemic started, they found T cells which were specifically tailored to detect proteins on the surface of Covid-19. This suggests that some people already had a pre-existing degree of resistance against the virus before it ever infected a human. And it appears to be surprisingly prevalent: 40-60% of unexposed individuals had these cells.
Posted in the antibodies thread, but relevant here just the same

@Gordon_R you may not trust my opinion over that of professor of immunology, but you may want to start to question an opinion of a professor of immunology over research conducted by other fellow scientists.
 
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Gordon_R

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Posted in the antibodies thread, but relevant here just the same

@Gordon_R you may not trust my opinion over that of professor of immunology, but you may want to start to question an opinion of a professor of immunology over research conducted by other fellow scientists.

You keep posting links to refute other links, as if one truth supersedes another. Reality is much more complex, and T-cells are not a magic cure. The group most vulnerable to Covid are the elderly, and they have weak immune systems. See:
 

Paulsie

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You keep posting links to refute other links, as if one truth supersedes another. Reality is much more complex, and T-cells are not a magic cure. The group most vulnerable to Covid are the elderly, and they have weak immune systems. See:
I have NEVER said it was a magic cure, nor that it was that simple. I was merely challenging your article that gave the impression that because antibody counts were diminishing, we were loosing our immunity to the virus, hence becoming vulnerable again.
 

Gordon_R

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I have NEVER said it was a magic cure, nor that it was that simple. I was merely challenging your article that gave the impression that because antibody counts were diminishing, we were loosing our immunity to the virus, hence becoming vulnerable again.

I don't know if you are trolling or not. Immunity is not a binary on/off factor. It is a process, involving many components, and many stages. You keep trying to minimise the factual findings, as if they are somehow unimportant. Lower number of antibodies in circulation, mean a delayed response before the T-cells kick into action. That makes vulnerability. No more, no less.
 

flippakitten

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Here is a great example of how numbers and percentages can be misleading.
data.png

Note that while the admission rates for 85+ seem off the charts comparatively but if you had to walk into a hospital in the peak of UK's epidemic, there would have been more 40+ than 85+ people occupying the beds.

When you convert the percentages to numbers it's pretty clear why local lock downs are needed in UK.

The last few days hospital addmission data seem to be leveling off, let's hope it keeps going like this.
 

Paulsie

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I don't know if you are trolling or not. Immunity is not a binary on/off factor. It is a process, involving many components, and many stages. You keep trying to minimise the factual findings, as if they are somehow unimportant. Lower number of antibodies in circulation, mean a delayed response before the T-cells kick into action. That makes vulnerability. No more, no less.
If you think my contributions are troll-like, you're welcome to block me. I will, in time, get over it.

You say immunity involves many components and I agree with you. The article you refer to (and defend so profusely) however does not think so.

Let me remind you:
On the balance of evidence, I would say it would look as if immunity declines away at the same rate as antibodies decline away, and that this is an indication of waning immunity."
.
That to me reads - declining antibodies = declining immunity = you can get sick again. That's what I'm fighting about. The article itself tends to ignore other parts of the equation, not me.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to get "infected" second time, third time, 4th time... for your immune system memory to kick in and deal with the virus??? That's what immunity is - virus invades your body and your immune system deals with it. It does not stop it from entering.
It is articles like this that highlight the vulnerability part, without addressing the immune system memory part.

And if someone who has had covid, has recovered and has immunity (antibodies or T-cells) and this person gets infected a second time (albeit with no symptoms because of their immune system response), I bet you top dollar that headlines around the world will be screwing PERSON INFECTED FOR A SECOND TIME!!!

And that is my last on this subject.
 
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dabbler

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It bothers me when I get the flu even after having a flu jab, but some years when I don't get the jab I don't get the flu. I hope the covid vaccine when it appears is more consistent and reliable.
 

Lupus

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It bothers me when I get the flu even after having a flu jab, but some years when I don't get the jab I don't get the flu. I hope the covid vaccine when it appears is more consistent and reliable.
Well the times you get the flu when you've had the flu jab it would be a different strain to what you got jabbed for. The Coronavirus vaccine will only protect you against the strains they are vaccinating against.
 

pinball wizard

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You keep trying to minimise the factual findings, as if they are somehow unimportant.
I think you need to slow down a bit and notice that all he's done is post some research that shows a different picture to what you posted.

Didn't you make a quip about one truth superseding another? Well, at some point, a truth, the truth, displaces all the other hypothesis, which are all both of you are posting, some tested to a better degree than others.
 

Paulsie

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Too long to quote, but an interesting research on antibodies, body response to covid and what scientists did not find in severe cases (antibodies formed in germinal centre's vs elsewhere).

I think we can finally agree with @Gordon_R that there is so much more to discover...
 
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Some breaking news coming out of Germany and it's what we've been expecting.

Sources have told Reuters that Angela Merkel's government have reached a deal with local authorities in all 16 federal states to impose a partial lockdown from November 2.

The lockdown will see all bars and restaurants closed until at least November 30, while shops may remain open provided they meet a new condition of a maximum of one person per ten square metres in order to respect social distancing.
 
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