International COVID-19 Updates & Discussion 3

Geoff.D

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Fair enough.

I see it more per my response to his post.

It appears very uncertain that it has any benefit at all.

People like Geoff have devoted thousands of posts to argue for anything, but the vaccine. It is that philosophy that irks me.
I have Not spent thousands of posts arguing against vaccines. On the contrary I many times over said we need both, vaccines and preventative measures. But every time anyone posts ANYTHING that suggests preventative measures it is automatically assumed as an attack on vaccines.
It is not. It is evidence of keeping an open mind.
But when it goes together with an automatic personal attack it is completely unacceptable.
And especially when a false accusation is made that the person posting it is using it to justify an attack on vaccines.
And that IS what buka001and his crony CD do over and over again.
It destroys rational debate and understanding of what this whole virus is all about.
You also conveniently forget one point and that is I am in the position of NOT being able to get vaccinated even if I want to. So alternative protection measures are always interesting.
STOP with the personal attacks and play the ball, and there will be peace.
 
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Geoff.D

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So after 1 year, 99% of vaccinated will not even have breakthrough infections, never mind actually developing symptoms, never mind actually developing serious symptoms, never mind actually requiring hospitalization, never mind requiring treatment in ICU, never mind actually dying.

Seriously, the vaccine works well enough not to need booster shots. And the more people are vaccinated the lower the infection rate will be for everyone. Really can't see how this thing will survive with this kind breakthrough rate if 100% of people are vaccinated.
Correct. So explain why the vaccine producers are pushing their rhetoric so hard. What is their motive?
The only explanation is a profit motive. That assumes that their base data about how effective the vaccines are is correct.
If not a profit motive, what does their pushing of boosters imply?
Uncertainty about the effectiveness of their products? Covering their arses "in case"?
Your post suggests that it could simply be the incorrect interpretation of the significance of breakthrough infections.
 
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JohnMao

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Fair enough.

I see it more per my response to his post.

It appears very uncertain that it has any benefit at all.

People like Geoff have devoted thousands of posts to argue for anything, but the vaccine. It is that philosophy that irks me.
Does Geoff not help people get the vaccine? If I remember correctly that was stated a couple of months ago... :unsure:
 

Geoff.D

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There are many instances where people have done studies and have come to erroneous conclusions because of their biases or because of calculation errors, and in those instances they are called out by other scientists because their conclusions do not match the findings.

We don't trust people, we trust science. You're conflating the two.

The results of an experiment (science) can be trusted. The people interpreting those results (scientists) are fallible to bias and preconceived notions.

It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of understanding.
And it is also the ability to comprehend what the researchers report. In this instance, buka001, in desperate attempt to fight against a viewpoint he somehow finds objectionable, finds a passage in the report, quotes it out of context and then concludes incorrectly what those researchers suggest is the value of saline irrigation.
It is a classic example one of many how his ability to read and comprehend has let him down time and again.
 

Geoff.D

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Not a lot of people sadly, they will still go around chomping on natural herbal remedies and such. Whereas you know what we do with natural herbal remedies that work? We turn them into convenient safer pills.
Sometimes. And sometimes valuable remedies end up being discarded also.
 

tetrasect

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Correct. So explain why the vaccine producers are pushing their rhetoric so hard. What is their motive?
The only explanation is a profit motive. That assumes that their base data about how effective the vaccines are is correct.
If not a profit motive, what does their pushing of boosters imply?
Uncertainty about the effectiveness of their products? Covering their arises "in case"?
Your post suggests that it could simply be the incorrect interpretation of the significance of breakthrough infections.

They are saying they recommend boosters for maximum protection, and they are right in that regard. However a 1% chance of a breakthrough infection does not warrant this, at least in my opinion.
This is way beyond the objectives of saving lives and ensuring hospitals aren't overloaded.
Their own numbers show that the vaccine works exceptionally well.
But of course they would love to sell another few billion doses of their product, they are a for profit organization after all.
 

Geoff.D

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They are saying they recommend boosters for maximum protection, and they are right in that regard. However a 1% chance of a breakthrough infection does not warrant this, at least in my opinion.
This is way beyond the objectives of saving lives and ensuring hospitals aren't overloaded.
Their own numbers show that the vaccine works exceptionally well.
But of course they would love to sell another few billion doses of their product, they are a for profit organization after all.
I agree. There is no evidence at all to support a need for boosters yet.
 

SoldierMan

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So what now? Buka001, and, Tetrsect? What if these are successful? Are you then going to continue believing only vaccines are the solution? What if those drugs are sold at thousands of dollars per dose? What will you then say?

No no, expensive drugs with trials only done by the manufacturers thereof will be a-ok for the vaccine zealots around here :thumbsup:
 

tetrasect

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So what now? Buka001, and, Tetrsect? What if these are successful? Are you then going to continue believing only vaccines are the solution? What if those drugs are sold at thousands of dollars per dose? What will you then say?

Yeah great. For now vaccines are the only solution, but I obviously welcome anything that actually works.
 

Geoff.D

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Yeah great. For now vaccines are the only solution, but I obviously welcome anything that actually works.
Going to hold you to this. BTW what does actually work mean in your book?
Feel free to table positive objective criteria only.
And approval by regulators is not an objective positive criteria.
And also seeing the efficacy criteria for vaccines is >= 50%, don't set any numerical criteria at better than this either!
 
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tetrasect

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Going to hold you to this. BTW what does actually work mean in your book?
Feel free to table positive objective criteria only.
And approval by regulators is not an objective positive criteria.
And also seeing the efficacy criteria for vaccines is >= 50%, don't set any numerical criteria at better than this either!

Well there's a difference between use in hospital to prevent death, and use at home to reduce viral loads.

Either one is good news but obviously the latter would be nicer.

If this pill could completely inhibit viral replication in vaccine breakthrough cases, it would present a clear path to the end of the Covid era.

Vaccine to prevent death, and a pill to prevent further spread in case of breakthrough infection. Virus wouldn't stand a chance.
 

buka001

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And it is also the ability to comprehend what the researchers report. In this instance, buka001, in desperate attempt to fight against a viewpoint he somehow finds objectionable, finds a passage in the report, quotes it out of context and then concludes incorrectly what those researchers suggest is the value of saline irrigation.
It is a classic example one of many how his ability to read and comprehend has let him down time and again.
Present the clinical studies and peer reviews that saline solutions in nasal cavity will stop COVID.


Your claim, now present the evidence.
 

buka001

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So what now? Buka001, and, Tetrsect? What if these are successful? Are you then going to continue believing only vaccines are the solution? What if those drugs are sold at thousands of dollars per dose? What will you then say?
I have known about that for sometime.

If the trials are successful, fantastic, bring it on. It will be a fantastic result and another step in ending this nightmare.

At the moment, while we await the trials and conclusions, the vaccines are the only solution that has been proven to work.
 

flytek

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If rolled out in time. I would hazard a guess that large percentages of the planet who are slow to vaccinate and can't afford to lockdown will follow South Africas footsteps where natural antibodies will outnumber vaccine antibodies massively early on and less so forever more.
 
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