International COVID-19 Updates & Discussion 3

lumeer

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Anti-vaxers should watch that video with Seult from Medcram.

It explains VAERS, it explains ADE, it explains adverse events.
This may change the minds of the vaccine hesitant, but will have no effect on the true anti-vaxxers.
 

Mirai

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This may change the minds of the vaccine hesitant, but will have no effect on the true anti-vaxxers.

No, but it will humiliate them when they have to present a cogent argument against this. There is none. There is only theoretical, oh ADE could occur. Or we could be selecting for resistant mutants and other nonsense.

Oh but Geert van der Bosche said this, or Malone said that or someone else said this other thing... these guys don't defend their assertions with actual research and resultant evidence but still play the, oh but you can't tell me with 1000% certainty that we won't get a mutant or ADE any day now, or maybe in the future peoples' testicles will fall off.
 

andydinsmore

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Jun 25, 2015
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This may change the minds of the vaccine hesitant, but will have no effect on the true anti-vaxxers.
This long
No, but it will humiliate them when they have to present a cogent argument against this. There is none. There is only theoretical, oh ADE could occur. Or we could be selecting for resistant mutants and other nonsense.

Oh but Geert van der Bosche said this, or Malone said that or someone else said this other thing... these guys don't defend their assertions with actual research and resultant evidence but still play the, oh but you can't tell me with 1000% certainty that we won't get a mutant or ADE any day now, or maybe in the future peoples' testicles will fall off.
Muzzle up and bend over there guys, yooos gonna get ya death jab yeah!
But what do I know eh.
 

Mirai

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This long

Muzzle up and bend over there guys, yooos gonna get ya death jab yeah!
But what do I know eh.

That splinter with a tiny bit of soil in your toe, that could give you Tetanus and you could die too.
 

Nanfeishen

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Interesting article re covid deaths vaxxed versus unvaxxed counting.

In other words, if you’ve received one dose of Pfizer or Moderna and develop symptomatic COVID-19, get admitted to the hospital and/or die from COVID, you’re counted as an unvaccinated case. If you’ve received two doses and get ill within 14 days, you’re still counted as an unvaccinated case.
The problem with this is that over 80% of hospitalizations and deaths appear to be occurring among those who have received the jabs, but this reality is hidden by the way cases are defined and counted.

 

Mirai

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I get it pro covid vax youtube videos good , anti covid vax youtube videos bad

Pro vax video, that one, is actually reasoned out step by step with current empirical real world proof.

Anti-vax videos, on average, COULD BE, MAYBE, lies, disinformation and extrapolations which are not there.

He actually explains the VAERS data. He explains what ADE is and why it can't happen and that we haven't see it but we see the opposite. The woman explains some of the problems with IVM trials. These people are not pro vaccine mandates and they do see promise in IVM but not beyond merely reducing viral loads in some situations with no effect on mortality or hospital admission so far. They are not dismissing anything. But they state it, as it is.

Watch the video which is backed step by step with actual evidence from trials, stats and knowledge of pathophysiology.
 

Mirai

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Interesting article re covid deaths vaxxed versus unvaxxed counting.




Well we don't do that, even if Lew Rockwell says that, and we see that unvaccinated people are flooding our hospitals and tying up beds we now can't use for other emergencies.
 

Seven_Nine_Eight

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Aug 7, 2020
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165
Thanks, I see bioRxiv publishes these reviews as community reviews:
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There are more good comments there.
I suspect the reviewers going over the article will suggest a new title. Something like:
A mutated SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant can acquire resistance to wild-type spike vaccines in vitro.

It is often (I almost want to say more often than not) the case that in vitro studies are nearly completely useless at predicting what will happen in vivo and this can also be said of animal models predicting what will happen in humans. Nevertheless, these models at the very least demonstrate that viral mutants will have different affinities for the antibodies raised against the current vaccine spike proteins (this is not something new of course) and that there are certain mutants to at least monitor when they do emerge. This is also just one mutant with these effects (in vitro) and there are potentially many other and this applies to in vivo cases too.

I think it is inevitable that variants that escape the current vaccines will emerge. Early signs for this will be increased numbers of vaccinated COVID cases coupled with a decrease in the numbers of a variant that the current vaccine is effective against. The current actually do seem to suggest early signs of this. I mean, look at the increase in the number of vaccinated people being infected and also the Delta variant appears to be waning.
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Seven_Nine_Eight

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Anti-vaxers should watch that video with Seult from Medcram.

It explains VAERS, it explains ADE, it explains adverse events.
The article referenced to discuss the pre- and post-fusion spike proteins and vaccine development is really interesting.
Article

The same issue published an in vitro study that found more mutants that escape neutralization.
Article
These are just more variants that need to be monitored when they emerge.

The design of vaccines to take into account pre and post-fusion spike proteins provide decent assurance that ADE is less likely, but it is still something to monitor:

Vaccine Risks for Antibody-Dependent Enhancement (ADE)​

Virus vaccines can use live-attenuated virus strains, inactivated (killed) virus, protein subunit, messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA), or deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) vaccine. Antibodies induced by vaccines can be neutralizing or non-neutralizing. Non-neutralizing antibodies can contribute to anti-viral activities with mechanisms including antibody-medicated complement-dependent cytotoxicity (CDC), antibody-dependent cellular cytotoxicity (ADCC), antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis (ADCP) [reviewed (73)]. The yearly influenza vaccine induces both neutralizing and non-neutralizing antibodies that provide projection against the strains in the vaccine and closely related strains. Vaccine-associated enhanced disease (VAED) can result when there are multiple circularizing serotypes of virus [e.g., Dengue fever (5557)] or when the virus uses antibodies for expanded host cell trophism of phagocytic immune cells.

Many of the viruses associated with ADE have cell membrane fusion mechanisms (38). For influenza A H1N1, vaccine-induced cross-reactive anti-HA2 antibodies in a swine model promote virus fusion causing vaccine-associated enhanced respiratory disease (VAERD) (74). ADE was observed for the respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) in the Bonnet monkey model (37). Van Erp et al. (37) recommends avoidance of induction of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) non-neutralizing antibodies or subneutralizing antibodies to avoid ADE. ADE has been observed in multiple SARS-CoV-1 animal models. In a mouse model, attempts to create vaccines for SARS-CoV-1 lead to pulmonary immunopathology upon challenge with SARS-CoV-1 (75, 76); these vaccines included inactivated whole viruses, inactivated viruses with adjuvant, and a recombinant DNA spike (S) protein vaccine in a virus-like particle (VLP) vaccine. Severe pneumonia was observed in mice vaccinated with nucleocapsid protein after challenge with SARS-CoV-1 (77). Enhanced hepatitis was observed in a ferret model with a vaccine with recombinant modified vaccinia virus Ankara (rMVA) expressing the SARS-CoV-1 Spike protein (78). ADE was observed for rhesus macaques with SARS-CoV-1 vaccine (79). SARS-CoV-1 ADE is mediated by spike protein antibodies (80). Antibodies to the SARS-CoV-1 spike protein can mediate viral entry via Fc receptor-expressing cells in a dose-dependent manner (54). Jaume et al. (34) point out the potential pitfalls associated with immunizations against SARS-CoV-1 Spike protein due to Fc mediate infection of immune cells. This leads to the prediction that new attempts to create either SARS-CoV-1 vaccines, MERS-CoV vaccines (81), or SARS-CoV-2 vaccines have potentially higher risks for inducing ADE in humans facilitated by antibody infection of phagocytic immune cells. This potential ADE risk is independent of the vaccine technology (82) or targeting strategy selected due to predicted phagocytic immune cell infections upon antibody uptake. For MERS patients, the seroconversion rate increased with disease severity (83). Severe clinical worsening for SARS patients occurs concurrently with timing of IgG seroconversion (84). Clinical evidence of early high IgG responses in SARS patients is correlated with disease progression (85) and severity (6267). Antibody treatments for critically ill COVID-19 patients have been halted due to a potential safety signal and unfavorable risk-benefit profile (86). Current SARS-CoV-2 vaccines appear to be providing protection with high antibody titers; the possibility of ADE risks associated with waning titers of antibodies over time remains unknown.
 
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