Introduction to Islam

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wayfarer

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Actually I was looking for more of an Islamic law reference
The views I gave are all based on legal opinions of Islamic scholars. There is no precedent for suicide attacks in Islamic history, and no canonical/scriptural reference. There are, however, Quran and Hadith references prohibiting killing of non-combatants.

If that is the view the why is it so prolific and mostly targeted against non combatants
Extremists are more often influenced by geo-political circumstances than Textual or Sacred Law considerations. Scholars of Islam condemn this loudly and clearly, and there are numerous official edicts available, even online, to this effect. Furthermore, this phenomenon was entirely absent from Islam for all the centuries, up until a few decades ago. In fact, Islamic scholars deliberated about the Kamakazi suicide attacks in the Pacific Campaign during WW2, and concluded that this would not be considered permissible means of combat in Islam.
 

R/SGT

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The views I gave are all based on legal opinions of Islamic scholars. There is no precedent for suicide attacks in Islamic history, and no canonical/scriptural reference. There are, however, Quran and Hadith references prohibiting killing of non-combatants.

Extremists are more often influenced by geo-political circumstances than Textual or Sacred Law considerations. Scholars of Islam condemn this loudly and clearly, and there are numerous official edicts available, even online, to this effect. Furthermore, this phenomenon was entirely absent from Islam for all the centuries, up until a few decades ago. In fact, Islamic scholars deliberated about the Kamakazi suicide attacks in the Pacific Campaign during WW2, and concluded that this would not be considered permissible means of combat in Islam.
So why does it continue to be viewed as an acceptable means of attack, by so many?

In Japanese culture is is perfectly acceptable and honourable just like Seppuku
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku
 

falcon786

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So why does it continue to be viewed as an acceptable means of attack, by so many?
Its generally viewed as acceptable by desperate people in desperate situations,its easy for us sitting here safe and comfortable in our country living life freely to criticize but desperate people think very differently to us.
 

R/SGT

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Hmm Plant explosives or blow myself up??????

Still doesn’t make sense

Of course there is the financial incentive and the promise of paradise so II don’t know how much desperation comes into their act
 

falcon786

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Hmm Plant explosives or blow myself up??????

Still doesn’t make sense

Of course there is the financial incentive and the promise of paradise so II don’t know how much desperation comes into their act
Maybe you should do some proper research into such matters before blaming it on religion alone,Is a YALE publication good enough for you to get some facts from?

The evidence from the database largely discredits the common wisdom that the personality of suicide bombers and their religion are the principal cause. It shows that though religion can play a vital role in recruiting and motivating potential future suicide bombers, the driving force is not religion but a cocktail of motivations including politics, humiliation, revenge, retaliation and altruism. The configuration of these motivations is related to the specific circumstances of the political conflict behind the rise of suicide attacks in different countries.

On October 4, 2003, 29 year old Palestinian lawyer Hanadi Jaradat exploded her suicide belt in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa killing 20 people and wounding many more. According to her family, her suicide mission was in revenge for the killing of her brother and her fiancé by the Israeli security forces and in revenge for all the crimes Israel had perpetrated in the West Bank by killing Palestinians and expropriating their lands. The main motive for many suicide bombings in Israel is revenge for acts committed by Israelis.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/what-motivates-suicide-bombers-0

You see,if something is said often enough by the media then the man on the street believes it,actual studies are now showing that people commit these kinds of things more out of desperation or political reasons rather than religious ones.Lets start talking facts instead of playing with media type ideas that have been brainwashing us.
 

R/SGT

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Maybe you should do some proper research into such matters before blaming it on religion alone,Is a YALE publication good enough for you to get some facts from?

That was just a quick reply as I was leaving the office so I didn’t put much thought into it, but I wasn’t blaming religion alone, although unfortunately religious belief does play a major role in these acts. Good article but I have also read some others to get more perspective


You see,if something is said often enough by the media then the man on the street believes it,actual studies are now showing that people commit these kinds of things more out of desperation or political reasons rather than religious ones.Lets start talking facts instead of playing with media type ideas that have been brainwashing us.
If you read further down

For the individual, participating in a suicide mission is not about dying and killing alone but has a broader significance for achieving multiple purposes – from personal to communal.
These include
gaining community approval and political success;
liberating the homeland;
achieving personal redemption or honor;
using martyrdom to effect the survival of the community;
refusing to accept subjugation;
seeking revenge for personal and collective humiliation;
conveying religious or nationalistic convictions;
expressing guilt, shame, material and religious rewards
escaping from intolerable everyday degradations of life under occupation,
boredom, anxiety and defiance.
The configuration of these purposes varies and is an outcome of specific circumstances of the political conflict behind the rise of suicide attacks as a tactic and a weapon.
The causes of suicide bombings lie not in individual psychopathology but in broader social conditions.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/what-motivates-suicide-bombers-0
The problem with your statement on brainwashing, is that unfortunately almost all suicide bombing that occur today are committed by Muslims. Therefore Islam would be seen to be the common denominator behind all the attacks and it doesn’t help when you have militants and clerics using Islam to justify the attacks, as per this

Militant Muslim groups that carry out suicide attacks say that they believe their actions fulfill the obligation of jihad against the "oppressor" and that they will be rewarded with paradise; they have found support with some Muslim clerics. Justifications have been given by conservative Iranian Shi'ah cleric Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi, "When protecting Islam and the Muslim community depends on martyrdom operations, it not only is allowed, but even is an obligation as many of the Shi'ah great scholars and Maraje', including Ayatullah Safi Golpayegani and Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani, have clearly announced in their fatwas."[58] Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran showered those who performed suicide attacks against Israel with accolades.[59] Other clerics have supported suicide attacks largely in connection with the Palestinian issue. Prominent Sunni cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi has supported such attacks by Palestinians in perceived defense of their homeland as heroic and an act of resistance.[60] Shiite Lebanese cleric Muhammad Husayn Fadlallah, the spiritual authority recognized by Hezbollah, holds similar views.[53]
The Quranic verse used by Zarein Ahmedzay in support of his actions is Surah 9 At-Tawba verse 111:[61]
Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their wealth for the price of Paradise, to fight in the way of Allah, to kill and get killed. It is a promise binding on the truth in the Torah, the Gospel and the Qur'an.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack
But there are many Scholars and clerics who have spoken out against sucide bombers

However, multiple Western and Muslim scholars of Islam have pointed out that suicide attacks are a clear violation of classical Islamic law and characterized such attacks against civilians as murderous and sinful.[62][63] For example, Bernard Lewis states, "The emergence of the now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century. It has no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition."[63] Respected Muslim scholars have also condemned suicide bombings as terrorism that is prohibited in Islam with the perpetrators being destined to hell.[62] In condemning suicide attacks, Muslim scholar Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri directly targeted the rationale of Islamists by stating, "Violence is violence. It has no place in Islamic teaching, and no justification can be provided to it...good intention cannot justify a wrong and forbidden act".[62] In January 2006, one of Shia Islam's highest ranking Marja clerics, Ayatollah al-Udhma Yousof al-Sanei also decreed a fatwa against suicide bombing, declaring it as a "terrorist act".[64] Other Sunni Muslims have condemned suicide attacks and provided scholastic refutations of suicide bombings. Ihsanic Intelligence, a London-based Islamic think-tank, published their two-year study into suicide bombings in the name of Islam, titled The Hijacked Caravan,[65] which concluded that,
"The technique of suicide bombing is anathema, antithetical and abhorrent to Sunni Islam. It is considered legally forbidden, constituting a reprehensible innovation in the Islamic tradition, morally an enormity of sin combining suicide and murder and theologically an act which has consequences of eternal damnation."[66]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack
Why if such respected persons as above forbid it, do these type of attacks continue?

If as you say, people commit these kinds of things more out of desperation or political reasons rather than religious, why do we not see people of other religions or even atheists using this method.

I wasn’t able to find any Christian suicide bombers and only found one Jewish one Israel Rabinowitz and he failed in his attempt to blow up the US House of Representatives
 

R/SGT

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Ok this topic is obviously derailing the "intro" part of the thread so i suggest we discuss it in the "tossed" thread my reply will be there shortly.
This thread aims to provide information on the basics of Islam, and to dispel some of the myths and misunderstandings about Islam. These misbeliefs are often the premises for arguments presented in PD, hence the rationale for this thread

How does the discussing sucide bombings derail the above unless you plan for this thread to be used solely for information purpose and not debate or questioning of islam?
 

falcon786

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This thread aims to provide information on the basics of Islam, and to dispel some of the myths and misunderstandings about Islam. These misbeliefs are often the premises for arguments presented in PD, hence the rationale for this thread

How does the discussing sucide bombings derail the above unless you plan for this thread to be used solely for information purpose and not debate or questioning of islam?
Because suicide bombing is not an islamic topic nor is it restricted to muslims that are fighting freedom etc go do you research heres another intellectual post on the subject for you with some facts.

http://phys.org/news204367639.html

I've given you a proper answer in the tossed thread.

THIS thread is an intro to ISLAM not political unrest and militant groups :rolleyes:
 
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R/SGT

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Because suicide bombing is not an islamic topic nor is it restricted to muslims that are fighting freedom etc go do you research heres another intellectual post on the subject for you with some facts.

http://phys.org/news204367639.html

I've given you a proper answer in the tossed thread.

THIS thread is an intro to ISLAM not political unrest and militant groups :rolleyes:
I am not impressed with your link

Dr. Gill acknowledges that the majority of suicide bombers experienced by the Western World, in its own territory or in Afghanistan or Iraq, are male Muslims under 35.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news204367639.html#jCp
But, he says, “on a worldwide basis, suicide bombers have ranged from 15 to 70 years old, been very well educated and uneducated, male and female, from all socio-economic classes, Christian, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim, religious and secular, single and married, white and black.”
Out of all of these the only sucide bombers I can find are muslim which makes it an islamic issue, but I will go and play in the other thread as requested
 

falcon786

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I am not impressed with your link


Out of all of these the only sucide bombers I can find are muslim which makes it an islamic issue, but I will go and play in the other thread as requested
We have been discussing this in the other thread but it seems you are keen to troll here instead of looking for answers or a legitimate discussion.

I'm not impressed by your trolling.
 

Indigogirl

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Maybe the trolls - and others - might be interested in this take on the matter?

Kristof doesn't cover the issues in great detail, but does raise some interesting points.
 

Boyrock

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This islam vs the rest is one of perspective.

What islam values, the rest of the world despises.

What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises.

These two perspectives are irreconcilable.

Neither side will change their values, nor should they.

The strongest and best set of ideas will prevail.

If natural selection worked so well during biological evolution, we should allow the same process in social and political evolution.
 

wayfarer

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...What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises...
Hi Boyrock. Thank you for your comments.

Statements like the one above are churned by the classical "clash of civilizations" argument. I will present a response soon.
 
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wayfarer

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This islam vs the rest is one of perspective.

What islam values, the rest of the world despises.

What the rest of the world holds as the key to modern civilization, islam despises.

These two perspectives are irreconcilable.

Neither side will change their values, nor should they.

The strongest and best set of ideas will prevail.

If natural selection worked so well during biological evolution, we should allow the same process in social and political evolution.
Apologies for the late reply. I initially intended to construct a detailed reply regarding Islam, enlightenment, modernity and primordiality, but I have decided to leave such an essay/treatise for much later in the thread, probably after dealing with the topic of "Islamic history" as per the index. So I will not deal with questions on this topic at this time. However, I hope that the following explanation will do for now:

The "clash of civilizations" argument espoused by the war-hysterical right-wing extremist conservatives has been debunked by many scholars, Muslim and non-Muslim. However, the fact that there are some among the laity who are not extremists but still support this argument is understandable, given the Western media bias. The following points are relevant here:

1. Islam is sometimes confused, by westerners, for its extremist deviations. It is ironic that in the West the term Islam has come to refer to the less-than-3% who make up the extremist deviant groups (with their distinct doctrine and practice), and not the over 90% who make up the traditional Muslim group. One can then ask the question: which "Islamic" values are being referred to?

2. In the piece quoted above, it is implied that social and political evolution/change/progression is absent in Islam. This claim belies the political and social reality of some Muslim nation states, as well as ignores the entire (ongoing) Arab spring in the Middle East and northern Africa, which dominated the news media for quite some time recently.

3. Within the Shariah, there are aspects that are mutable (changeable/adaptable/evolveable) and other aspects which are immutable (fixed). The fixed aspects include those to do with core values and standards of morality. These are the primordial values that have existed since the time of Adam; the balanced set of values to which humanity has returned to time and time again after periodic stints of digression. Sometimes it was social impetus that effected the return to this norm, and sometimes the return was inspired by divinely chosen prophets. What some in the West regard as a forward evolving western value system, is in actual fact the pendulum swinging away from its median position, ever destined to return to the primordial and perennial equilibrium. We are witnessing inconsistencies between the value systems of the West and mainstream Islam precisely because the West is deviating from the moderate path walked and timeless values espoused by the likes of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc.

Muslim scholar, Timothy Winter, says:

"It is not that we are extreme. It is not we who destroyed the bridge. We are simply holding to the norms generally recognised by our species for 99% of its history. It is the West that is extreme, that has grown strange, that seems to have gone mad." (Sunna as Primordiality, T. Winter)
 
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Nerfherder

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Apologies for the late reply. I initially intended to construct a detailed reply regarding Islam, enlightenment, modernity and primordiality, but I have decided to leave such an essay/treatise for much later in the thread, probably after dealing with the topic of "Islamic history" as per the index. So I will not deal with questions on this topic at this time. However, I hope that the following explanation of will do for now:

The "clash of civilizations" argument espoused by the war-hysterical right-wing extremist conservatives has been debunked by many scholars, Muslim and non-Muslim. However, the fact that there are some among the laity who are not extremists but still support this argument is understandable. The following points are relevant here:

1. Islam is sometimes confused, by westerners, for its extremist deviations. It is ironic that in the West the term Islam has come to refer to the less-than-3% who make up the extremist deviant groups (with their distinct doctrine and practice), and not the over 90% who make up the mainstream. One can then ask the question: which "Islamic" values are being referred to?

2. In the piece quoted above, it is implied that social and political evolution/change/progression is absent in Islam. This claim belies the political and social reality of some Muslim nation states, as well as ignores the entire (ongoing) Arab spring in the Middle East and northern Africa, which dominated the news media for quite some time recently.

3. Within the Shariah, there are aspects that are mutable (changeable/adaptable/evolveable) and other aspects which are immutable (fixed). The fixed aspects are those to do with core values and standards of morality. These are the primordial values that have existed since the time of Adam - the balanced set of values to which humanity has returned to time and time again after periodic stints of digression. Sometimes it was a societal impetus that effected the return to this norm, and sometimes the return was inspired be divinely chosen prophets. What some in the West regard as a forward evolving western value system, is in actual fact the pendulum swinging from its median position, ever destined to return to the primordial and perennial equilibrium. We are witnessing inconsistencies between the value systems of the West and mainstream Islam precisely because the West is deviating from the moderate path walked and timeless values espoused by the likes of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc.

Muslim scholar, Timothy Winter, says:

"It is not that we are extreme. It is not we who destroyed the bridge. We are simply holding to the norms generally recognised by our species for 99% of its history. It is the West that is extreme, that has grown strange, that seems to have gone mad." (Sunna as Primordiality, T. Winter)

I think you are pushing it a bit by saying that he implied radical Islam. Islam as a whole has some really archaic practices.

Do only 3% of Muslims consider the Bhurka normal, this kind of thing is that creates divisions. You say we don't understand these practices, perhaps we don't but we live happy lives without them so to us they are unnecessary.

I remember a South African documentary a while back about a gay couple wanting to get married. They were asking representatives of the various religions asking if they would be allowed to get married in their respective churches. Most of the churches *****footed around the question and then eventually gave either a yes or no answer. The Imam they interviewed was quite clear, he gave a single direct answer, "if we were allowed to stone you to death we would."

That really stuck with me... its just so damming. People are changing all the time, views and ideas change, everything changes anyway but Islam is determined to work against progress.

Change is inevitable and you need to work with it to stay relevant.
 

wayfarer

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I think you are pushing it a bit by saying that he implied radical Islam.
I am not saying that.
Islam as a whole has some really archaic practices.
This is a claim that those who support deviations from the primordial, tried and tested, moderate path will always make.

Do only 3% of Muslims consider the Bhurka normal, this kind of thing is that creates divisions. You say we don't understand these practices, perhaps we don't but we live happy lives without them so to us they are unnecessary.
There are many amongst the extremists who do not regard the wearing of the face veil as being obligatory. (The only face veil wearer that I ever met happened to be a mainstream Muslim who was the principal of a local high school. Much to her husband's dismay, she insisted on wearing the veil as a personal expression of modesty.) While the wearing of the face veil is certainly not one of the fixed, balanced values I refer to, Islam differs from unreasonable societies in that it defends the right of a female to either wear or not wear the face veil, regardless of whether she is a Muslim, a ninja, or a Muslim ninja :)p).

I remember a South African documentary a while back about a gay couple wanting to get married. They were asking representatives of the various religions asking if they would be allowed to get married... The Imam they interviewed was quite clear, he gave a single direct answer, "if we were allowed to stone you to death we would."
I cannot answer for the crazy statement of the Imam, or why the media again sought to portray an extremist view as representing the mainstream. Homosexual feelings experienced by individuals are not taboo in and of itself. While Islam forbids actual homosexual relations as a societal inimicality, there is absolutely no precedent or Quranic injunction for punishing someone based on sexual orientation.

That really stuck with me... its just so damming. People are changing all the time, views and ideas change, everything changes anyway but Islam is determined to work against progress.
False. Islam is opposed to harmful deviation, and not to "progress". The shariah is organic, and there are aspects within it that do evolve, but Islam's benign, core values will forever stay the course and be vitally relevant.
 
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