Introduction to Islam

Hamish McPanji

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im going to have to watch again
Noticed a few signs, he refers to other scholars who have found evidence of xyz, and bases his assumptions on those but doesn't name any of them. Very suspect. He has a book or 2 out, so I referenced from that also, and figure I know why.

There are a few reasons for this, one is that they are often biased polemicists whose entire aim is to punt their own religion. Some have even recounted their previous assertions after being challenged. But 3 other authors have based their assumptions on the recanted claims. This guy is now using these 3 other authors as his proof.

I don't think he's being malicious per se, just a bit naive. He just seems like he's a Nabataean romantic, and wants to attach more relevance to their existence than there actually is. By talking up Petra, he's convinced himself of that.

And a lot of the anti Islamic websites have picked this up , and piled a lot more BS on top of what was already there, making it further difficult to actually find source material online
 

Hamish McPanji

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is he of any religion ?
i'm not seeing any attempt by him to further any religion
I didn't actually question his religious motives if you see my previous post. As I don't know his take on that.

However if you look at the order in which he released his books, it gives you an indication of what I think he is. And it's a common trend amongst people studying exotics lands and cultures
 

3Gee

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i believe that was used as a reference for a time and place during that period - not now
Correct me if I'm wrong , as you stated , stars were used back then.

The current 12 degree angle pointing to Petra using current maps , do they compensate for the 1500 year movement in the stars.
 

FrankCastle

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Everyone and his dog has a theory about something. This is the internet. And people like Jay Smith , who have already displayed their prejudices will jump on anything that supports their views without much of a fact check.

I think what is telling is when people of one religion are seemingly obsessed with another religion. Almost like they want to rack up some conversion points to get to heaven. That goes for the guy who started that thread as well
About the same as muslims obsessed with sharia law and imposing it on the world, hoping to rack up the same points. I present so called educated muslims in the UK.

 

isie

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About the same as muslims obsessed with sharia law and imposing it on the world, hoping to rack up the same points. I present so called educated muslims in the UK.

wow a muslim speaking to other muslims about their own religion - not sure where you get forcing anything.

Also not sure how doff you are but clearly this is not even close to what @Hamish McPanji was even saying
:cautious:
 

isie

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Ah, triggered responses trying to subvert my obvious comparison.
Well done boys.
no you the triggered one , not sure why you felt the need to post anything here if you were not affected by what he said not to mention he never even tagged you ;)
felling all hurt ag shem
If you absolutely have to respond to silly comments then I guess you just as dof as that other muppet accused me of being.
No you still the doff one, you still clearly don't understand what he said .
 

FrankCastle

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Can any of the muslims here or the OP please explain what is going on here?

All verses relate to Mary - Mother of Jesus.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL - 19:27

Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL -3:35

[Mention, O Muhammad], when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. And I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her in You and [for] her descendants from Satan, the expelled [from the mercy of Allah ]."
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL - 66:12

And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into [her garment] through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient.
Miriam, the sister of Aaron and Moses - her fathers name was Amram (Imran).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amram

1500 years later

Mary (Maryam), the mother of Jesus (Isa) - her fathers name was Joachim (Is he also called Imran?).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim
 

FrankCastle

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Unfortunately, no matter how reasonable Maajid Nawaz is, he represents a extremely tiny minority
If you're referring to muslims, many support his and other alternative views, but remain on the sidelines for fear of being victimised or rejected.

And then there are those that leave Islam completely but remain silent about it. Theres a growing trend especially in the US where converting to other faiths or being progressive is not as issue.

https://factsandtrends.net/2018/02/...eave-islam-protestant-converts-often-replace/


Appears that muslims have disappeared on mybb as well. Still waiting for someone to engage me on the questions I posed above. :p
 

surface

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If you're referring to muslims, many support his and other alternative views, but remain on the sidelines for fear of being victimised or rejected.

And then there are those that leave Islam completely but remain silent about it. Theres a growing trend especially in the US where converting to other faiths or being progressive is not as issue.

https://factsandtrends.net/2018/02/...eave-islam-protestant-converts-often-replace/


Appears that muslims have disappeared on mybb as well. Still waiting for someone to engage me on the questions I posed above. :p
F.E.A.R - you summed it well - it is well proven technique that has worked well for centuries.
 

FrankCastle

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To respond the the question I posed above this is what I found out. According to the traditional Islamic response this is the answer thats given:
Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read" O sister of Harun" (i. e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.
So, Mary is referred to as a descendant of Aaron, but we run into a few problems:

-The Christians of Muhammeds time well versed in Arabic and knowing their own texts were unfamiliar with the concept he presented which is why they approached him in the first place to clarify.
-There has never been any instance in all of history in any literary or religious text where a descendant is reference to as "the sister of" or "the brother of". When the reference is made then it talks about contemporaries not descendants. Descendants are referred to as "daughter of" and "son of."
-Mary descended from David and of tribe of Judah and not Aaron of the tribe of Levi.
-Aarons mother talked about the baby in her womb being Mary (mother of Jesus) and not Maryam Aarons sister.

Even Muhammeds wife, Ayesha was approached about this and she too was dumbfounded when she responded:

It was narrated from Ibn Jarir, narrated from Yaqub, narrated from Ibn U’laya, narrated from Sa’id Ibn Abi Sadaqa, narrated from Muhammad Ibn Sireen who stated that he was told that Ka’b said the verse that reads, "O sister of Harun (Aaron)!" (of Sura 19:28) does not refer to Aaron the brother of Moses. Aisha replied to Ka’b, "You have lied." Ka’b responded, "O Mother of the believers! If the prophet, may Allah’s prayers be upon him, has said it, and he is more knowledgeable, then this is what he related. Besides, I find the difference in time between them (Jesus and Moses) to be 600 years." He said that she remained silent.
So the logical conclusion is that Muhammed heard about the 2 Maryams at different times and assumed it was the same person. At that stage it was too late to rectify or remove it as it was narrated to many people and so was left as part of the Koran.
Notice, he respond by saying "thats the revelation I received, so Allah knows best", which would've instantly exonerated him.
 
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