Introduction to Islam

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saturnz

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2 wrongs doesn't make a right.
Do you get legal wars?
I didn't say two wrongs make a right, but the issue is about relative peace, and you are the first one I've come across to argue that Iraq is more peaceful now than it was before the war.
 

TysonRoux

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Naive to expect peace in Iraq when you have the two islamic factions doing battle, sunni vs shia.
 

saturnz

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Naive to expect peace in Iraq when you have the two islamic factions doing battle, sunni vs shia.
so you also do not understand the concept of relative peace

just to shed context on why we are arguing on another pointless issue

if I recall correctly, FrankCastle made the assertion muslims could only live peacefully in a democracy

since the war, Iraq is theoretically a democracy, and before the war, it was ruled by a dictator, and since under Saddam Iraq was relatively peaceful compared to post war, the assertion made by FrankCastle is incorrect

furthermore, he also stated that I said Iraq is generally peaceful, which is absolutely false, because clearly before or after the war it was not generally peaceful.
 

TysonRoux

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BWHAHAHAHAHAHA

Zim enjoyed relative peace under Mugarbage dicktatorship.

Are the rewards the same for killing an infidel as the rewards for killing an opposing islamic faction (eg. sunni vs shia vs wasabi)?
 

FrankCastle

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this is what it boils down to, according to you, he made it up, in other words he lied- presented fiction as non-fiction
another way to look at it, he was deceived by the devil, like satanic versus
he could be crazy, and through random chance wrote the book
or he indeed he actually received revelation

those are the four options at this point, if you can come up with more, I'm willing to consider it
1.If I write an authentic maths textbook but says god "inspired" me write 1+1=2 and people believe me, is the textbook itself a work of fiction or is the source fictitious?
2. Devil made me do it - doesn't cut it.
3. Definitely had "issues" but revelations were not random
4. No evidence

Read chronologically the koran presents a dramatic shift in tone form Meccan to Medinan revelations culminating in his "just in time verses" that were well thought out to enhance his unsavory privileges. Even his young wife Aisha famously proclaimed - "I feel that your Allah hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

So in essence he had an initial burst of "inspiration" which his wife and uncle erroneously thought to be a sign of prophethood and he just built it up from there.
Moreover he was accused of being a sorcerer and a madman by his community, and what better way to silence your critics that you are mad - you immediately respond with more "revelations" of the accusation of course.

A muslim by the name of Ali Dashti goes into detail and presents the most plausible, albeit respectful explanation of Muhammeds career that you'll find, devoid of any supernatural influences or embellishment, using the most authentic historical sources. As he put it - " there is no objective and rationally acceptable book presenting a portrait of him [Mohammad] unclouded by preconceptions, suppositions, and fanaticisms..."

 

FrankCastle

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so you also do not understand the concept of relative peace

just to shed context on why we are arguing on another pointless issue

if I recall correctly, FrankCastle made the assertion muslims could only live peacefully in a democracy

since the war, Iraq is theoretically a democracy, and before the war, it was ruled by a dictator, and since under Saddam Iraq was relatively peaceful compared to post war, the assertion made by FrankCastle is incorrect

furthermore, he also stated that I said Iraq is generally peaceful, which is absolutely false, because clearly before or after the war it was not generally peaceful.
Lets not derail lest it gets locked - again.
 

saturnz

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1.If I write an authentic maths textbook but says god "inspired" me write 1+1=2 and people believe me, is the textbook itself a work of fiction or is the source fictitious?
2. Devil made me do it - doesn't cut it.
3. Definitely had "issues" but revelations were not random
4. No evidence
ja we are done, if you still can't acknowledge the huge difference in the words I say versus the words you think I say, then this thread is going to get locked in any event
 

FrankCastle

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ja we are done, if you still can't acknowledge the huge difference in the words I say versus the words you think I say, then this thread is going to get locked in any event
Still butthurt I see, so why not go searching for my exact words so we're even - maybe your recollection is incorrect-and it is.

if I recall correctly, FrankCastle made the assertion muslims could only live peacefully in a democracy
 

saturnz

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Still butthurt I see, so why not go searching for my exact words so we're even - maybe your recollection is incorrect-and it is.
this is the exact quote

And in order to find true Islam and good muslims you have to go to muslim minority countries, that have a democracy and no sharia law like the US, UK, SA etc.
And guess what happens when they become the majority?
 

saturnz

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Awesome - Is Iraq a muslim minority country with no sharia law with a democracy similar to UK, US, SA?
its a majority muslim country, and it has no sharia law as far as understand things, especially if it has a central bank

as for democracy, didn't the UK and the US invade Iraq with the purpose of establishing democracy there, who gets to decide if its similar or not?
 

FrankCastle

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its a majority muslim country, and it has no sharia law as far as understand things, especially if it has a central bank

as for democracy, didn't the UK and the US invade Iraq with the purpose of establishing democracy there, who gets to decide if its similar or not?
So your assertion was wrong but I'm not going to accuse you of lying because misquotations happen. I honestly dont want to discuss Iraq here.

if I recall correctly, FrankCastle made the assertion muslims could only live peacefully in a democracy

since the war, Iraq is theoretically a democracy, and before the war, it was ruled by a dictator, and since under Saddam Iraq was relatively peaceful compared to post war, the assertion made by FrankCastle is incorrect
 

saturnz

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So your assertion was wrong but I'm not going to accuse you of lying because misquotations happen. I honestly dont want to discuss Iraq here.
lol, I can acknowledge that

nevertheless, you still have not acknowledged there is significant difference between relatively peaceful and generally peaceful
 

FrankCastle

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lol, I can acknowledge that

nevertheless, you still have not acknowledged there is significant difference between relatively peaceful and generally peaceful
I should have directly quoted you so we didnt end up in this mess. I didn't feel discussing Iraq was relevant to wasnt invested in using exact words.
 

FrankCastle

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So my thread has been locked for undisclosed reasons so ill respond here:

@Mineer

Hello,
Thank you for your important question. I have not been on this forum for a while but this will be my attempt to answer you.

Firstly we should establish
1.) Muslims accept that God has all power and any semblance of power that we as humans seemingly weld is from God. We share no part in power, All power belongs to Him.
2.) We also believe God has provided us with free will, we can and do exercise will, but have no power to enact it.
3.) Muslims believe that God will judge humans on the intention/will of an act we willed into being.
4.) The outcomes of any particular event is outside the control of humans albeit he has provide us with some intellect which we can use to foreseeably see what outcomes might be, this is help us better judge between actions we wish to will into being.

What this means is that if we have a wish to lift a finger, we are free to will a lifting of our finger but have no power to enact it, it is only God that provides that power. God powers all actions and all we have is, intentions and will.

So can a Human be held responsible for the actions that he wills into being, albeit God provides the power to enact it, the answer, at least from our perspective, is Yes. God does not intervene in decision (will) of a particular act he only empowers it and therefore He (God) has the final say of the outcomes of an act.
As said, Muslims believe that God will judge us on the intention/will and not the outcomes of any particular event. So if a person loses his ability to walk after a horrific accident, it is truly the will of God. However, the intention to be a reckless driver endangering the lives of others on the road, that is something that God might judge someone on, which may or may not be in his favor.
At the same time you should know that God understands the inner workings at the heart of your intentions. So saying I have good intentions by driving really recklessly fast might not be good strategy to evade the judgement of God, you fool none but yourself.
Thanks for the response but there's a few issues here.
What youre saying is if the shooter intended to pull the trigger, god gives him the power to pull that trigger, thereby resulting in death which He had already ordained.
So even if a person intended to kill, which many have contemplated but didn't carry out, god would've still provided the power to pull the trigger because He has already decided that person should die, not the shooter.

Either the killer intended to shoot or god had no power in his death. You cant have both and try to extrapolate some kind of incoherent argument.
 

Prawnapple

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LOL, I guess this thread will be locked soon as well
Oaks are getting kak triggered about their mythological fairy cloud-fathers. Unless of course, the admins themselves are followers of those same mythological cloud-people.
 

FrankCastle

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LOL, I guess this thread will be locked soon as well
At the very least an explanation would be in order.
I hope the mods can grapple with fact that there's a very fine line between alleged Islamophobia and critically assessing or deconstructing Islamic ideology/beliefs.
if this is indeed the reason for threads getting locked.
 

Mineer

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Thanks for the response but there's a few issues here.
What youre saying is if the shooter intended to pull the trigger, god gives him the power to pull that trigger, thereby resulting in death which He had already ordained.
So even if a person intended to kill, which many have contemplated but didn't carry out, god would've still provided the power to pull the trigger because He has already decided that person should die, not the shooter.

Either the killer intended to shoot or god had no power in his death. You cant have both and try to extrapolate some kind of incoherent argument.
So you agree, you can have both and extrapolate some kind of coherent argument. I am glad you agree.

This is further coherently explained in this very thread see link
 
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