Introduction to Islam

wayfarer · Aug 21, 2012

Muslims generally believe that the Christian figure of God-the-Father is in fact the One God. Some historians/scholars further explain that the amalgamation of Jesus Christ with God, as well as the concept of the Holy Spirit are entirely novel innovations added by Paul and some other early Christians. The fact that Muslims regard Christians as having unnecessarily compounded the person of God (even blasphemed Him, in so doing) does not mean that different gods exist. It is essentially the same God.

See also: Trinity, a Muslim Perspective

wayfarer · Aug 21, 2012

Prophet Muhammad's Farewell Sermon

Main > Q&A > Prophet Muhammad's Farewell Sermon
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Geriatrix said:

Prophet Muhammad's farewell sermon has been recorded in authenticated Hadiths, and while being regarded as revelation, Hadiths are not part of the Quran. Prophet Muhammad only included into the Quran that which God commanded to be in it. The Quran is not the speech of Prophet Muhammad, it is God's speech.

The Farewell Sermon

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard your lives and property as sacrosanct. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has judged that there shall be no interest, and all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not fraternise with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, make your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat (money/food/alms for poor/needy). Perform Hajj (pilgrimage) if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor has a non-Arab any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Know that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim, and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to you which belongs to your brother unless it was given freely and willingly. Therefore, do not wrong yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand the words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words even better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

wayfarer · Aug 31, 2012

Adam and Eve's descent from Paradise

Main > Q&A > Adam and Eve's descent from Paradise
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Geriatrix said:

No. While the story is similar, there are some fundamental differences. Adam and Eve's souls are certainly everlasting, as are yours and mine. But the body is not. Also:

Adam is responsible for his own actions (eating forbidden fruit), and does not blame his partner, Eve. She, in turn, is responsible for her own actions.
Childbirth and menstrual pain are not punishments for all women because of their grandmother's actions.
Every human is born in a natural state of innocence, and not in original sin, and humanity therefore does not require (the absurd notion of) having an innocent crucified.
Adam and Eve's descent to earth was not a punishment. God had decreed this even before they ate the fruit.
God does not respond with wrath to the eating of the fruit, but with mercy.
The fruit was forbidden to test Adam and his partner, and through eating the fruit, Adam and Eve showed the first acts of free will. It demonstrated that humanity was prepared for its worldly sojourn, but would ultimately return to Him.

See Quranic accounts:

"And We made covenant with Adam before, but he forgot, and We found in him no constancy.

And when We said to the angels, 'Bow yourselves to Adam'; so they bowed themselves, save Iblis (Lucifer); he refused. Then We said, 'Adam, surely this is an enemy to thee and thy wife. So let him not expel you both from the Garden, so that thou art unprosperous. It is assuredly given to thee neither to hunger therein, nor to go naked, neither to thirst therein, nor to suffer the sun.'

Then Satan whispered to him saying, 'Adam, shall I point thee to the Tree of Eternity, and a Kingdom that decays not?' So the two of them ate of it, and their shameful parts revealed to them, and they took to fashioning upon themselves leaves of the Garden. And Adam disobeyed his Lord, and so he erred (against himself).

Thereafter his Lord chose him, and turned again unto him, and He guided him. Said He, 'Get you down, all of you, out of it, enemies to each other; but if there comes to you from Me guidance, then whosoever follows My guidance shall not go astray, neither shall he be unprosperous; but whosoever turns away from My remembrance, his shall be a life of narrowness, and on the Resurrection Day We shall raise him blind.' " (Quran 20:115-124)

also

"And We have certainly created you, (O Mankind), and given you (human) form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated. (God) said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" (Satan) said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
(God) said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased. (Satan) said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected." (God) said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved." (Satan) said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path. Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful (to You)."
(God) said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."

And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." And he swore (by God) to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors." So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?" They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."

(God) said, "Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time." He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth (back to God)."

O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of God that perhaps they will remember.

O children of Adam, let not Satan tempt you as he removed your parents from Paradise, stripping them of their (righteous) clothing to show them their nakedness. Indeed, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you do not see them. Indeed, We have made the devils allies to those who do not believe." (Quran 7:11-27)

View:

Purpose of Life (complete lecture) by Prof Jeffery Lang, professor in faculty of Science
or see only relevant 2-minute clip on Adam and Eve's "slip" by Prof Jeffery Lang

Jings · Sep 3, 2012

Are all Muslim children intruded to Islam in this fashion, or is it just confined to extremists?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg3m3t87-dk

wayfarer · Sep 3, 2012

jingaling said:

No, but children are taught about God from a young age, as parents are eager to guide their children to worship, know and love God, as God informs us that this is key to success in this world and in the next. But jingaling (you have a cool sounding name), with videos like this uploaded in boast, I can fully understand why so many have a skewed understanding of mainstream Islam.

The views and method used in the clip is well-known to be of the Wahhabi deviation. For example:

God's wrath is directed at the Jews?
This statement is not a mainstream view. Sure, there are some among the Muslims, Christians, Jews and many other groups, who by their actions, incur the wrath of God. But a blanket statement like that wreaks of arrogance, bigotry and hatespeech. There are contexts in which the Quran strongly criticises Jews (for specific things), but there are also the following Quranic verses:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 5:69)

and

"Among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) there are some who believe in God and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before God. They do not sell God's signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And God is swift at reckoning." (Quran, 3:199)

and

"... There is a community among the People of the Book (Jews and Chrisitans) who are upright. They recite God's signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. God knows those who guard against evil." (Quran, 3:113-115)

The Christians are THE misguided?
It is a well-known fact that religions do regard belief systems that contradict their fundamental beliefs as being misguided. But once again, to refer to a group as THE misguided, and to teach this type of condescending view of the "other" to young children is not the spirit in which mainstream Muslims teach their children. Also, that attitude suspiciously involves turning a blind eye to the Quranic verses quoted above (the verses refer to both Jews and Christians).

Use of the rosary (prayer beads) is a condemned innovation in the religion?
Virtually every Muslim house has numerous prayer beads, in various number sets, used in religious devotions. Often, even motor vehicles of Muslims have a rosary hanging from the rear view mirror, to be at hand at any time to count praises to God (and for some it is a symbol of identity). It is only the Wahhabi sect that believe that its use is a harmful innovation.

The birthday celebration of Prophet Muhammad is an innovation?
Mosques across the globe are lit up with colourful lights and displays and hold lectures on the importance of excellence in behaviour/character, Muslims dress up in colourful new clothing, praises and poems are sung in Prophet Muhammad's honour, extra efforts at charity are made, in many places Muslims have celebratory marches lead by singing bands. And Wahhabis hold lectures condemning birthday celebrations or (at best) do nothing.

Music is forbidden?
Please permit me to answer this one by simply saying LOL.

Celebrate killing (and teaching this to a child)?
No longer funny.

unskinnybob · Sep 3, 2012

wayfarer said:

Proof? By "entered puberty" you mean 9 years old?

wayfarer · Sep 4, 2012

Aisha's Age when Her Marriage was Consummated

Main > Q&A > Aisha's Age when Her Marriage was Consummated
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unskinnybob said:

Debates around Aishah's age at the time she was married to Prophet Muhammad have been happening since the earliest days of Islam. Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity, and tended to favour reports that placed her at the youngest age. However, some studies questioned the very young age recorded in certain reports. Most reports placed her puberty age to be 9, and obviously this was also the age that modern-day critics of Prophet Muhammad prefered to latch onto, i.e. critics who do not even have knowledge of history, the cultural context, or the Hadith record sciences.

In terms of the age that Aisha's marriage was consummated:

Mainstream scholars generally place her age at 9 (some say possibly older).
Shia scholars who doubt the reliability of certain narrations place her age at 14 to 16.
Ahmadiyyahs (such as Muhammad Ali), say she was as old as 19. (Ahmadiyyah's are generally considered to be non-Muslim.)

What we do know was that Aisha describes an "illness" shortly before joining Prophet Muhammad's household. And this "illness", coupled with certain behavioural changes, is understood by some scholars to be the onset of menarche. Marriages at the ages of between 9 and 14 were common in Bedouin (and other Semitic) societies at the time, and historians (such as British scholar, Colin Turner) suggest that such marriages were not problematic in the historical context. Even in the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century, legislation existed in the West (including the USA) that had the legal age of consent for sexual intercourse to be even lower than that of Aisha's consummation age.

According to Women and Social Movements 1600-2000 (affiliate of Binghamton, State University of New York CHSWG):

In the late nineteenth century... (and early 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century) the laws of most states (in the USA) set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen.

unskinnybob said:

(Quoted post above appears later in thread)

This is an interesting question, and reflecting on it, one could consider the following:

Is the person being asked this question living in a 7th century, desert society?
Does the culture in that place and time view this as an acceptable societal norm?
And importantly, are the pubescent bride and her parents of the Muslim faith, and is the bridegroom the Prophet Muhammad, recognised by Muslims as the pinnacle of all creation, most beloved of God, the one whom God states He "sent as a mercy" to all (Quran 21:107)?

One could then pose the following rhetorical question: If the answer was yes to any of the above, what do you think the answer to the poster's question would be?

See also mainstream Muslim support for age 9 or 10:

See also mainstream Muslim support for the possibility of older than 9 or 10:

unskinnybob · Sep 4, 2012

wayfarer said:

Good wiki copy/paste. Child marriages might have been common, but what age was the prophet when he married a 6 year old?

isie · Sep 4, 2012

unskinnybob said:

where did you get that he ever maried a 6 year old?

unskinnybob · Sep 4, 2012

isie said:

Age of Aisha at time of marriage with Holy Prophet Muhammad

It is believed on the authority of some Hadith reports that the marriage ceremony (known as nikah, amounting to betrothal) of Aisha with the Holy Prophet Muhammad took place when she was six years of age, and that she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife three years later at the age of nine. We quote below from two such reports in Bukhari.

“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

SUNAN ABU DAWUD

Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4915)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 13, Number 2380)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

wayfarer · Sep 4, 2012

unskinnybob said:

Information is drawn from papers by G.F. Haddad and Dr. Resit Haylamaz respectively, as well as Hadith (Bukhari). Remember that Wikipedia is not a primary source, and that it too references other sources. They likely referenced a common source (C. Turner, Islam, the basics) for that part.

Once again, there are differences of opinion on whether Prophet Muhammad "married a 6 year old". You seem to be more certain than many modern day scholars as to her age of marriage. Some sources place her at this age, such as the ones you quote. Others place her at around a decade older. But as was mentioned earlier, there is general consensus that consummation took place after puberty.

While the minimum age is generally puberty, there are no reports of maximum ages for marriage in early Bedouin societies, so this can be anything (although senility would definitely be regarded as problematic). Sources place Prophet Muhammad variously between his late 40s and early 50s at the time of his marriage to Aisha.

ghoti · Sep 4, 2012

wayfarer said:

Absolute FUD from you. Trying to strech the truth so you make it sound like she was older. Historian and scholars (muslim and western) are pretty much in agreement on her age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

There are SIX references you can pull from, and unless you have evidence they all come from a common source, dont make up stuff and pretend they were.

wayfarer · Sep 4, 2012

ghoti said:

False. Even some basic research would expose you to the different arguments by various Muslim groups who defend a particular age, as well as an evaluation of the primary sources used as substantiation. However, the majority of mainstream scholars do say that she was 9 at consummation, and this is not in the least bit problematic.

Anyway, the intention of this thread is not to go into depths with the technicalities of any of the Islamic sciences (such as the complexities involved in ulum-ul-Hadith, of which I consider myself merely a beginner student), but to serve as an introduction to Islam according to the mainstream.

What is your point?

Forgive me for not understanding what you mean by that. Perhaps I was not clear. What I meant was that my main sources of information for what I stated earlier was Haddad and Haylamaz respectively (and Bukhari hadith), and the reason why Wikipedia says things similar to what they said could be because they are both referencing C. Turner for that point. But I do not think that this matter is pivotal to the discussion.

ghoti · Sep 4, 2012

wayfarer said:

I was very clear on my point. Please reread my post. Your apologetic excuse does not carry weight.

Your opinion and your fringe beliefs do not carry the weight of most muslim and western scholars. Put simply. I dont believe you. I believe most scholars on this. IE. people who know more than you and me. Also, you have not proven that they all source Turner. That is made up BS you are putting out there.

Sure, I understand why you would try hide the truth here... but like any apologetic. You have to jump through hoops and rewrite history to try make it like you have a valid point.

These people... say you are lying:

- Ahmed, Leila. Women and gender in Islam: historical roots of a modern debate.London: Yale UP, 1992. 9780300055832. 47-75
-Watt, "Aisha", Encyclopedia of Islam Online
- A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40
-Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
-Barlas (2002), p. 125-126
- Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88, Sahih Muslim, 8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915, Sunnan Abu Dawud, 41:4917
- Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7

Now show me the evidence they all copied Tuner please.

The latest any respected scholar has put her age is 10.

I understand your intentions in this thread. Now understand mind. I dont do BS. If you are going to say stuff that can be shown to be false. Someone will mention it. Im sure you would like to rewrite history so all of Islam was this big kumbaya hippy gathering where everyone got along, but that artificial bubble that you create does not represent reality. It only represents your constructed reality.

Geriatrix · Sep 4, 2012

What would it mean if her age was put at 10?

Unhappy438 · Sep 4, 2012

Geriatrix said:

Imo it would be disgusting

ghoti · Sep 4, 2012

Geriatrix said:

Nothing, as it means nothing that her age was 9. In those days what he did was socially acceptable. People back then did not have long life spans and you made babies asap. By the age of 19, a girl in those days was considered past her sell-by date and an old maid.

wayfarer · Sep 4, 2012

Your response is wide off the mark.

ghoti said:

I did not posit an opinion as to her age at all, I merely stated that there are differences amongst the sects and even in the mainstream, and that the mainstream generally puts her at 9 at the time of marriage consummation.

Don't believe what? That there are differences of opinion regarding her age? Even the scholars who strongly (and with certainty) defend a particular age know that there are differences of opinion.

Perhaps you are still not clear on this (unimportant) point, because you definitely misunderstand what I was saying. I was saying that Turner was referenced by the papers I refer to as well as by Wikipedia on the matter regarding social marital norms of the time and place - that's all.

Lying about what? Why don't you go off and read those sources that you quote, then come back to me, and we can chat. Because of the first 5 sources you quote, I have read 3, and all 3 acknowledge that differing opinions exist as to her age, so you clearly have not read your sources. I have not read Spellberg, but I know from reading the others (some of whom make reference to Spellberg) that even Spellberg holds that there are differences of opinion, although Spellberg suggests the younger age is more accurate. Your source number 6 actually consists of three separate Hadith compilers. It is from the resultant analyses of individual narrations of these same 3 compilations, and some others, that the differing opinions arise. Source 7, Tabari, a classical Muslim scholar, places Aisha at 9, but also, based on his record of when Aisha's mother died, some calculate the age to be 14.

Furthermore, your sources 1 through 4 are tertiary and rely on sources 6 (secondary) and 7 (primary), and I would venture to guess that source number 5 does too.

Well, that depends on who you regard as respected scholars in the field. If your meaning is that there is more support for the view of her being 9 or 10, then you are correct. But there are not only scholars, but whole scholarly organisations (including the Islamic Research Foundation International) that put her older.

Note: I am not saying that she definitely was older than 9, I am merely saying that differences of opinion exist. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING. And that most mainstream scholars place her at 9.

Perhaps you have only read certain parts of this thread. Muslims have differences and there does exist conflict, and everyone does not always get along. I have spoken about this in the thread.

Unhappy438 · Sep 4, 2012

ghoti said:

Not completely disagreeing with you but she did end up living to 66.

ghoti · Sep 4, 2012

Unhappy438 said:

One of the advantages of been part of a wealthy warlords family I would imagine.

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