murraybiscuit
Executive Member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2008
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so many trolls. so few bridges.
1. mysticsismBut Pr⊕ph, you're pre-empting a topic that is supposed to come much later in the index of topics
Read (external):
murray, I have board exams coming up, so please be patient if I do not immediately get to the rest of your post1. mysticsism
i was going to ask about mysticism and attempts to distil motifs and deeper meanings behind certain scriptural narrative. the jews have kabbalah. christians seem to have had a complicated relationship with mysticism. what is sufism? is that up on the radar for this thread?
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"Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion. But whosoever is constrained in emptiness and not inclining purposely to sin - God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." (Quran 5:3)2. in defence of final revelation / alternate revelation
i also wanted to know about how muslims defend against the prophet as the final prophet.
Muslims find this strange, thinking that Christians would be awaiting the comforter and his message, as the New Testament quotes Jesus Christ:... in much the same way that christianity is an offshoot which asserts new revelation but eschews subsequent revelation
Yes it does, like the Ahmadiyyah and Bahai, but there is no new revelation in the class of the Quran, or different versions of the Quran for these movements. These movements amongst themselves have further splits and offshoots. Some claim to have further prophets or incarnations of God, but these are very small in number, all offshoots put together just about make up 1-2% in comparison to the number of Muslims.... does islam have latter offshoots like christianity has mormonism or jehova's witnesses?
Good question: why a man on a mountain -why not just engrave it in a mountain? Remember that the Quran is God's Speech, an attribute of God Himself, and the Quran itself states:also, why does god have to use a guy on a mountain, a fisherman in a far off village, or a man in a cave to give revelation to and not just write in a cloud in the sky or something?
Did you miss the part where wayfarer pointed out that it is an important part of Islamic belief and is clearly stated in the Quraan?I suggest you stick to yor topic of Introduction to Islam and keep off the topic of the christain trinty and religon
When I mention Jesus Christ's words, I normally give the reference. In most cases it would be from the Quran, unless a Christian view is being compared, in which case it would be a New Testament reference.3. the words of jesus
you mentioned jesus and his words. do some of these appear in the quran?
Every single letter of the Quran is revelatory, revealed to Prophet Muhammad, who had scribes record it verbatum. Everything in the Quran, including the parts where the Quran quotes God Himself, Jacob, Jesus, even Satan or anyone else, is God's Speech. The Quran contains both direct and indirect speech, but every part of it is God's spoken word, verbalised by Angel Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad, and inducing a spiritual resonance in the Prophet's heart. No part of the Quran was authored by Prophet Muhammad or anyone else in creation. Exactly as Prophet Muhammad received the revelation, so did he recite it to the scribes. No part of the Quran is apocryphal or from any other source.are they revelatory, recited or quoted as first person (oral transmission). how do we know the veracity of these words if they were written so long after the time.
I think it would necessarily seem heretical to Christianity; after all, Christianity is not Islam, but they do have a largely common legacy.i'm trying to understand how these would not seem heretical for a christian.
I have no problem with wayfarers thread as long as he sticks to explaining Islam, however when he starts pontificating about Christianity and the Holy trinity then it is a attack on my faith.Did you miss the part where wayfarer pointed out that it is an important part of Islamic belief and is clearly stated in the Quraan?
If you have come to find out about Islam then do so dont try to hijack the thread with your own beliefs.
EDIT:aah I see wayfarer did the right thing
As for the above, most Christian debates are subject to the same thing , so deal with it.1. Arguments Tossed from Intro to Islam (obviating derails)
In order to prevent derailing and tangential debates from interfering with the flow and progress of the Introduction to Islam thread, I have created this one. Questions will generally be answered in the original thread, but arguments that become tangential or are of little/no academic value will be redirected here.
The "Aisha's age" post has been updated for the purposes of clarity and coherence, and as we have already moved on, any further comments should rather take place here.
I'm forcing him to stay and educate those that asked to be enlightened about Islam(People have asked me to create this thread to understand Islam and its views.),this thread wasn't created for you and it seems you cant respect other peoples beliefs since you cant simply discuss these issues in the other thread,you are clearly intent on trolling instead.I have no problem with wayfarers thread as long as he sticks to explaining Islam, however when he starts pontificating about Christianity and the Holy trinity then it is a attack on my faith.
As for the above, most Christian debates are subject to the same thing , so deal with it.
What makes this thread so special that it deserves special treatment
If you can’t deal with it, well no one is forcing you to stay and try and educate us Kafirs
Just to correct you there... Your not a Kafir.I have no problem with wayfarers thread as long as he sticks to explaining Islam, however when he starts pontificating about Christianity and the Holy trinity then it is a attack on my faith.
As for the above, most Christian debates are subject to the same thing , so deal with it.
What makes this thread so special that it deserves special treatment
If you can’t deal with it, well no one is forcing you to stay and try and educate us Kafirs
Does he still go to "heaven", or is he going to end up somewhere substantially more humid? ..or I suppose it would be more of a dry heat due to the flames..Just to correct you there... Your not a Kafir.
Kafir's are disbelievers. You have different levels of Kufur (Disbelief).
Plainly speaking if you completely deny Gods existence then yes you are Kafir.
Judging by your Faith being Christianity you are also a person of the book (Ahlul Kitab). I.E. You believe in God.
Just because your book is not the Quraan but the Injeel (Bible) still makes you a believer.
So no you not a Kafir. Technically a person does not have to subscribe to any of the 3 Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) and still be a Believer. Inherently belief in God is not something that you say or write down. It exists in the depths of your heart and human consciousness. Of which no human can judge. That alone is for God to decide who believed in him and who did not and dispense reward or punishment accordingly.
...If you can’t deal with it, well no one is forcing you to stay and try and educate us Kafirs
Tossed. ("Tossed" does not mean I'm "dissing" you, just that I feel the line is more appropriate to that thread.)Does he still go to "heaven", or is he going to end up somewhere substantially more humid? ..or I suppose it would be more of a dry heat due to the flames..
The majority of Muslim scholars, particularly historians and doctors of law, would disagree with your statement. Central to the idea of theocracy is the concept of who the leader is and how the ruler is chosen. It is either God Himself, or some divinely endowed agent of God. The state would be run by this person, assisted by clergy. A typical example of theocracy is the centuries long marriage between the Catholic Church and the State. The Pope fills a divinely sanctioned position, and he is assisted by cardinals to fulfill political leadership.4. politics
there seems to be a long history of theocracy when it comes to islam.
It is easy to confuse the despotic systems of middle-eastern powers with the concept of theocracy. But those dictators are not considered as divinely appointed or representing God - on the contrary, it is well-known that they were propped up by Western powers and/or came to power by brutal means. Nor do they legislate strictly according to Shariah. There are about 50 countries with a mainstream Muslim majority, but none of them exclusively apply the Shariah system. Most ascribe to British Common Law, Roman/Dutch Law, French law (Napoleonic code), as well as traditional laws and cultural norms. While Iran and Saudi Arabia claim to implement shariah, it should be noted that neither of these two countries follow mainstream Islam. Iran is Shiah and Saudi Arabia is Wahhabi/Salafi.possibly due to the western influence you've already alluded to.
It is important to point out that middle-eastern and north African Arabs comprise less than 20% of the world's Muslims, but this group is often the frame of reference for Western understanding of Islam.possibly due to the immaturity of politics and lack of nation-states within the arabian peninsula, partly due to lower population densities. i.e. tribalism and religion intertwined.
As has been pointed out, Islamic theocracies have never existed. Christian theocracies are now rare because, firstly, it has been realised that it is problematic to assert that a particular person is a divine agent annointed to rule, and sencondly, the "Law" part of the Christian canon (Pentateuch) is largely regarded as having been abrogated by the New Testament (which is for the most part void of legal content). Thus Christianity does not really have a comprehensive legal code, and this is what predisposed the west to secular law (once Catholicism's political power started to wane).it is conspicuous because it persists, whereas christian theocracies aren't much tolerated any more.