Iran humiliated as 'five ships FAIL to seize British oil tanker in Persian Gulf standoff'

MirageF1

Executive Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
5,307
Nope it was used as a warning to tell Stalin to back off. Whether it a necessity or not is another thing entirely. The Russians were making moves to capture land in East Asia probably including some Japanese Major islands
That too...but not exclusively.
 

nightjar

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
4,835
Nope it was used as a warning to tell Stalin to back off. Whether it a necessity or not is another thing entirely. The Russians were making moves to capture land in East Asia probably including some Japanese Major islands
A warning to Stalin was never explicitly spoken but there can be no doubt that a message was intended.

It was recognized by late 1943 that the Japanese government was prepared to sacrifice the entire population in resisting an American invasion and, when Truman signed off operation Olympic for 1 November 1945, he and his advisers knew that only the use of the bomb would force a Japanese surrender.

Even after two atomic bombs and the entry of the USSR into the war, General Anami was still desperate for a climactic battle on the invasion beaches and he had at his disposal 2.3 million fresh troops, some 4 million naval personnel and 28 million civilian home guard.

Japan announced its acceptance of the surrender terms on 15 August, NINE DAYS after Hiroshima's destruction, and the question must be asked, "Would Japan have still have surrendered on that day without the two bombs?
 

MirageF1

Executive Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
5,307
The Japanese were still fighting fanatically against the Russians in the Kuril Islands in the middle of effing nowhere days after the official surrender of Japan on Sept. 2 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_the_Kuril_Islands

The brilliant series "Soviet Storm: World War II in the East" produced from the Russian perspective of the Great Patriotic War is a must for anyone who wants to understand the utterly brutal side of Stalin's fight against Nazism and its fascist allies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Storm:_World_War_II_in_the_East
 

Polymathic

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
16,677
A warning to Stalin was never explicitly spoken but there can be no doubt that a message was intended.

It was recognized by late 1943 that the Japanese government was prepared to sacrifice the entire population in resisting an American invasion and, when Truman signed off operation Olympic for 1 November 1945, he and his advisers knew that only the use of the bomb would force a Japanese surrender.

Even after two atomic bombs and the entry of the USSR into the war, General Anami was still desperate for a climactic battle on the invasion beaches and he had at his disposal 2.3 million fresh troops, some 4 million naval personnel and 28 million civilian home guard.

Japan announced its acceptance of the surrender terms on 15 August, NINE DAYS after Hiroshima's destruction, and the question must be asked, "Would Japan have still have surrendered on that day without the two bombs?
The Japanese were on the verge of surrender anyway with all the fire bombing of their cities done by the US but who can really know when they would of surrendered.

Dan Carlin is doing a Hardcore history series on Japan in WW2 no doubt this topic will be covered when part 3 comes out
 

nightjar

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
4,835
The Japanese were on the verge of surrender anyway with all the fire bombing of their cities done by the US but who can really know when they would of surrendered.

Dan Carlin is doing a Hardcore history series on Japan in WW2 no doubt this topic will be covered when part 3 comes out
There is overwhelming evidence, fifty years after the event, that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were absolutely necessary to bring an immediate end to the war. The recently declassified diplomatic messages (known as MAGIC) between Tokyo and its diplomats in Axis and neutral countries show that Japan, as early as 1943, was talking about "national suicide" and "the sacrifice of the 100 million" in resisting invasion. All the participants in the decision to use the bomb were in unanimous agreement and, in their later autobiographies, none mentioned the reasons which remained classified for more than fifty years.

Another popular myth refers to Japanese attempts to surrender. The Japanese Government, under the domination of General Anami, was absolutely determined to fight on and was desperate for an invasion. The world mistakenly believes that the Japanese had been trying to negotiate a surrender through the Soviets but that is a complete fantasy. MAGIC intercepts prove that Tokyo was actually trying to split the Allies and forge an alliance with the USSR for the domination of east Asia and make “Japan & the USSR into a force unequaled in the world”.

The MAGIC summaries were a direct result of a catastrophic intelligence failure which resulted in Pearl Harbour. Only six Americans were authorized to read these intercepts - President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox and Gen. George Marshall, the Army chief of staff.
 
Last edited:

theratman

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
9,824
Just finished "The fall of Japan" pretty much covers what Nightjar said. Great short read and I recommend it to those wanting to know what ultimately brought about the Japanese surrender. There are lots of politics and other factors that went into it.
 

Nanfeishen

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
7,835
Another popular myth refers to Japanese attempts to surrender. The Japanese Government, under the domination of General Anami, was absolutely determined to fight on and was desperate for an invasion. The world mistakenly believes that the Japanese had been trying to negotiate a surrender through the Soviets but that is a complete fantasy.
Not fantasy, the Japanese were considering using the Soviets as a mediator for a negotiated peace treaty, however the Soviets decleration of war nullified that idea before it could get off the ground.

's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings were not the principal reason for Japan's capitulation. He argues that Japan's leaders were impacted more by the swift and devastating Soviet victories on the mainland in the week following Joseph Stalin's August 8 declaration of war because the Japanese strategy to protect the home islands was designed to fend off an Allied invasion from the south, and left virtually no spare troops to counter a Soviet threat from the north. Furthermore, the Japanese could no longer hope to achieve a negotiated peace with the Allies by using the Soviet Union as a mediator with the Soviet declaration of war. This, according to Hasegawa, amounted to a "strategic bankruptcy" for the Japanese and forced their message of surrender on August 15, 1945.[39][16] Others with similar views include the Battlefield series documentary,[2][11] among others, though all, including Hasegawa, state that the surrender was not due to any single factor or single event.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_War

The most important line of all - the surrender was not due to any single factor or single event.
 

MirageF1

Executive Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
5,307
the surrender was not due to any single factor or single event.
But 2 nukes in quick succession on major cities sure as hell rattled their foundations and made them rethink the absolute futility of continuing..
 

MidnightWizard

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
5,723
The most important line of all - the surrender was not due to any single factor or single event.
It is quite clear in my mind that the Atomic bombing of the Japanese cities was a warning to Stalin and was intended to prevent Stalin / the USSR from acquiring land in the PACIFIC far East -- as they did in Eastern Europe
The PACIFIC is an AMERICAN "lake" !!!!!!!!
ALL other justification of the bombing is -- "post ad hoc"

Please note the dates on which the Soviets tore up the "neutrality" agreement and turned it into a declaration of War

Though most westerners believed that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the events that drove Japan to surrender, the atomic bombs were actually only part of the equation. Historians such as Tsuyoshi Hasegawa and Dan van der Vat argued that the Soviet declaration of war was as important a factor, if not more so, in the Japanese decision to capitulate. During the last months of the war, it had been evident that the Japanese, not knowing the secret agreement for the Soviet Union to declare war on Japan, were seeking Soviet assistance as a neutral power to negotiate surrender terms with the western Allies. With the seemingly neutral Soviet Union suddenly changing face and tearing up the non-aggression pact, Japan suddenly lost its last hope, which affected the Japanese psyche tremendously.

Manchurian Strategic Offensive 9 Aug 1945 - 2 Sep 1945

Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front. The Japanese army went so far as to believe that they would not have to engage a Soviet attack until spring 1946. But the Soviets surprised them with their invasion of Manchuria, an assault so strong (of the 850 Japanese soldiers engaged at Pingyanchen, 650 were killed or wounded within the first two days of fighting) that Emperor Hirohito began to plead with his War Council to reconsider surrender. The recalcitrant members began to waver.

Soviets declare war on Japan; invade Manchuria

In August 1945, the Kwantung Army had declined to around 713,000 men (from a previous total of 1,320,000) and was defeated by Soviet troops during the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation. The Kwantung Army surrendered to the Soviets the day after the Surrender of Japan and was subsequently dissolved. The Kwantung Army was responsible for many of the worst Japanese war crimes during World War II, including the sponsorship of Unit 731 which participated in biological warfare and human experimentation against civilians and prisoners of war.

Kwantung Army

So much for the Japanese -- "NEVER Surrender"

For those REALLY interested you need to go back a bit and read the battle of Khalkhin-Gol
( The reason the German Wehrmacht was stopped at the gates of MOSCOW ! )
and
The early days of the career of Marshal of the USSR -- Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov

Also read -- RICHARD SORGE

An impeccable new biography of Richard Sorge, one of Russia's master spies

History does NOT take place in a "vacumn"
 

Daruk

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
44,797
It is quite clear in my mind that the Atomic bombing of the Japanese cities was a warning to Stalin and was intended to prevent Stalin / the USSR from acquiring land in the PACIFIC far East -- as they did in Eastern Europe
The PACIFIC is an AMERICAN "lake" !!!!!!!!
ALL other justification of the bombing is -- "post ad hoc"

Please note the dates on which the Soviets tore up the "neutrality" agreement and turned it into a declaration of War

Though most westerners believed that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the events that drove Japan to surrender, the atomic bombs were actually only part of the equation. Historians such as Tsuyoshi Hasegawa and Dan van der Vat argued that the Soviet declaration of war was as important a factor, if not more so, in the Japanese decision to capitulate. During the last months of the war, it had been evident that the Japanese, not knowing the secret agreement for the Soviet Union to declare war on Japan, were seeking Soviet assistance as a neutral power to negotiate surrender terms with the western Allies. With the seemingly neutral Soviet Union suddenly changing face and tearing up the non-aggression pact, Japan suddenly lost its last hope, which affected the Japanese psyche tremendously.

Manchurian Strategic Offensive 9 Aug 1945 - 2 Sep 1945

Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front. The Japanese army went so far as to believe that they would not have to engage a Soviet attack until spring 1946. But the Soviets surprised them with their invasion of Manchuria, an assault so strong (of the 850 Japanese soldiers engaged at Pingyanchen, 650 were killed or wounded within the first two days of fighting) that Emperor Hirohito began to plead with his War Council to reconsider surrender. The recalcitrant members began to waver.

Soviets declare war on Japan; invade Manchuria

In August 1945, the Kwantung Army had declined to around 713,000 men (from a previous total of 1,320,000) and was defeated by Soviet troops during the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation. The Kwantung Army surrendered to the Soviets the day after the Surrender of Japan and was subsequently dissolved. The Kwantung Army was responsible for many of the worst Japanese war crimes during World War II, including the sponsorship of Unit 731 which participated in biological warfare and human experimentation against civilians and prisoners of war.

Kwantung Army

So much for the Japanese -- "NEVER Surrender"

For those REALLY interested you need to go back a bit and read the battle of Khalkhin-Gol
( The reason the German Wehrmacht was stopped at the gates of MOSCOW ! )
and
The early days of the career of Marshal of the USSR -- Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov

Also read -- RICHARD SORGE

An impeccable new biography of Richard Sorge, one of Russia's master spies

History does NOT take place in a "vacumn"
/Wall of text

Bombing Japan had everything to do with Japan entering the war by bombing pearl harbour. It was a direct result of it... Or are you suggesting the Russians put the Japs up to it?
 

MidnightWizard

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
5,723
Perhaps you should FIRST -- pay attention to the "wall-of-text"
It IS there -- for a reason !
Please FIRST -- READ -- THEN consider your "reply"
 

Daruk

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
44,797
Perhaps you should FIRST -- pay attention to the "wall-of-text"
It IS there -- for a reason !
Please FIRST -- READ -- THEN consider your "reply"
Or not. I generally avoid reading stuff posted by people with no control over their shift / caps lock keys.
 

Grant

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
47,915
That Dreadnought-class sub is an artists rendition and will only enter service around 2028 :ROFL:
oh dear, my bad
then i guess the little yellow submarine will rule the seas and prevail
 

MidnightWizard

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
5,723
Or not. I generally avoid reading stuff posted by people with no control over their shift / caps lock keys.
Suit yourself -- wallow in your self-imposed ignorance
I am afraid there is NO cure for your -- "holier-than-thou" arrogance !
 

Nanfeishen

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
7,835
It is quite clear in my mind that the Atomic bombing of the Japanese cities was a warning to Stalin and was intended to prevent Stalin / the USSR from acquiring land in the PACIFIC far East -- as they did in Eastern Europe
The PACIFIC is an AMERICAN "lake" !!!!!!!!
ALL other justification of the bombing is -- "post ad hoc"

Please note the dates on which the Soviets tore up the "neutrality" agreement and turned it into a declaration of War

Though most westerners believed that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the events that drove Japan to surrender, the atomic bombs were actually only part of the equation. Historians such as Tsuyoshi Hasegawa and Dan van der Vat argued that the Soviet declaration of war was as important a factor, if not more so, in the Japanese decision to capitulate. During the last months of the war, it had been evident that the Japanese, not knowing the secret agreement for the Soviet Union to declare war on Japan, were seeking Soviet assistance as a neutral power to negotiate surrender terms with the western Allies. With the seemingly neutral Soviet Union suddenly changing face and tearing up the non-aggression pact, Japan suddenly lost its last hope, which affected the Japanese psyche tremendously.

Manchurian Strategic Offensive 9 Aug 1945 - 2 Sep 1945

Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front. The Japanese army went so far as to believe that they would not have to engage a Soviet attack until spring 1946. But the Soviets surprised them with their invasion of Manchuria, an assault so strong (of the 850 Japanese soldiers engaged at Pingyanchen, 650 were killed or wounded within the first two days of fighting) that Emperor Hirohito began to plead with his War Council to reconsider surrender. The recalcitrant members began to waver.

Soviets declare war on Japan; invade Manchuria

In August 1945, the Kwantung Army had declined to around 713,000 men (from a previous total of 1,320,000) and was defeated by Soviet troops during the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation. The Kwantung Army surrendered to the Soviets the day after the Surrender of Japan and was subsequently dissolved. The Kwantung Army was responsible for many of the worst Japanese war crimes during World War II, including the sponsorship of Unit 731 which participated in biological warfare and human experimentation against civilians and prisoners of war.

Kwantung Army

So much for the Japanese -- "NEVER Surrender"

For those REALLY interested you need to go back a bit and read the battle of Khalkhin-Gol
( The reason the German Wehrmacht was stopped at the gates of MOSCOW ! )
and
The early days of the career of Marshal of the USSR -- Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov

Also read -- RICHARD SORGE

An impeccable new biography of Richard Sorge, one of Russia's master spies

History does NOT take place in a "vacumn"
Thanks , will follow up on some of your suggested reading.
I have always thought and continue to think that the whole Pacific War theatre is just too America centric for propoganda reasons than anything else
 
Top