[Ireland] Teacher who refused to use student's gender-neutral pronouns condemns 'insanity' as he is JAILED in Ireland

[kolaval]

People need to adjust their lives accordingly to adapt in society.

Think about that statement a bit

 

[Cray]

What you said above has zero to do with my statement...

Are you going to expand on that logic or am I expected to guess?

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

Where was he compelled? A requirement of his job was to refer to the kid by their preferred pronoun, he chose not to and was suspended... He is welcome to not use that pronoun he is also welcome not to teach at that school.

You do know that employers can have policies dictating the behavior of their employees right?

Only within the confinements and stipulations of Labour Law.

Plenty of jobs dictate behaviour in interactions with others.. That is why employees can get fired if they tell customers to f*** off.

What you said above has zero to do with my statement...

Are you going to expand on that logic or am I expected to guess?

Without all the red herrings etc...Is my comment re. Labor Law incorrect?

 

[Cray]

Without all the red herrings etc...Is my comment re. Labor Law incorrect?

It's correct, so you weren't trying to make a further point relating to this case? If not I retract my further comments.

 

[Gyre]

Think about that statement a bit

What is there to think about? Nobody asking you to change, people are asking you to accept a person's way of life.

 

[kolaval]

People need to adjust their lives accordingly to adapt in society.

Nobody asking you to change, people are asking you to accept a person's way of life.

Oh dear, cognitive dissonance

 

[Gyre]

Oh dear, cognitive dissonance

If I have a problem with cloudy skies, I don't cry about it or petition to get rid of the clouds, I change my way that I look at the world. I believe you may have a word for a person who can't adjust, a snowflake?

I can have my delusions and still let people live their lives - if YOUR delusions say a group of people cannot exist, the problem is with you, not with them.

This teacher let one child bring his entire career down, 60 years ago he may have been crying about a black child, and 100 years before that a girl.

 

[Nerfherder]

Okay, what is your reason for why trans people exist?

They think therefor they exist.

Its not that hard. You don't need a soul to exist.

Anyway. There is probably a good evolutionary reason why it happens, there are other species who change their sex to survive.
Perhaps trans is just a evolutionary quirk sitting down in our DNA ready to be used when needed.

 

[kolaval]

@MightyGyre interesting response, there's a lot to talk about, but I fear it will just devolve into a mudsling fest again. I've got no skin on this game but it is an interesting philosophical discussion.

"People need to adjust their lives accordingly to adapt in society."
I think the fact that you can even make that statement is because you live in a society that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Secondly, you expect the norm to adjust their lives to accept without any reservations and even celebrate something that is abnormal to them. Is it then surprising that they dig their heels in?

Should gays adapt their lives accordingly if they are in a Muslim society?

If I should accept another's way of life, should they not accept mine? (And i do know how that will work since my acceptance of their way conflicts with mine and vice versa)

If i criticize and ridicule their way of life, am I doing something wrong?

If I accept their way of life but choose to not involve them in mine, am i doing something wrong? When will it be wrong, when I do not invite them for a braai?

"I can have my delusions and still let people live their lives - if YOUR delusions say a group of people cannot exist, the problem is with you, not with them"
Once again philosophically.
If you and I chat long enough I'll find a group that you would feel cannot exist, does that implicitly mean that a.there is a problem and b. that problem lies with you?
Should groups that you do not like exist?
Should Nazis exist?

"This teacher let one child bring his entire career down, 60 years ago he may have been crying about a black child, and 100 years before that a girl."

Is gender pronouns, black oppression and female oppression the same thing though?
Are you not cheapening what happened to black people by equating their struggles to this?

 

[Nerfherder]

Gender dysphoria should be treated like anorexia. An anorexic person is someone who believes they are fat, even when they are malnourished and have low body weight.

The progressive treatment for an anorexic person would be to starve them to death as you cannot disagree with a person's soul.

Who knows what the best way to treat a trans person is.

If someone stops eating they will die - but if they start living as another gender and take hormones they wont.

 

[kolaval]

They think therefor they exist.

Its not that hard. You don't need a soul to exist.

Anyway. There is probably a good evolutionary reason why it happens, there are other species who change their sex to survive.
Perhaps trans is just a evolutionary quirk sitting down in our DNA ready to be used when needed.

So what do we do with that then?
Is his an argument for their acceptance?
Can you apply the same logic to other groups?

 

[kolaval]

Who knows what the best way to treat a trans person is.

Good question, and I can think of only one answer but you aren't going to like the source.

 

[Howdy]

 

[Nerfherder]

So what do we do with that then?
Is his an argument for their acceptance?
Can you apply the same logic to other groups?

Its something I'm wondering about. Its a really hard question because if someone has a problem then we do want to help them.

To me being stuck in a body that conflicts with how you feel is a problem - hence we should try to help.
On a base level - If that means "living" as the opposite gender, it seems fair that acceptance is helping.
Then a person who wants hormones or surgery is still someone trying to resolve the problem. I think they are still trying to figure out the way to solve this problem, perhaps those things are a solution, perhaps not. Perhaps everyone is different.

Can I apply the same logic to other groups ?
Yes I think so. But other groups are not the same.

The hardest one is weather we should allow people with body dysmorphic issues to cut off an arm or leg because they hate it.
If not then why do we allow plastic surgery for the sake of looks ?
Why do we allow people to circumcise their kids ?

There are much harder questions coming the better the technology gets.

 

[Nerfherder]

 

[Geoff.D]

How many jobs dictate that you tell an objective lie to someone?

In fact, if you look at any professional ethics or guidelines for any profession, they would all state that you should never lie to anyone for any reason.

Lets turn the argument around, when do you think it is appropriate to lie in a workplace?

When the boss asks you if its hairstyle looks good?

 

[Gyre]

@MightyGyre interesting response, there's a lot to talk about, but I fear it will just devolve into a mudsling fest again. I've got no skin on this game but it is an interesting philosophical discussion.

"People need to adjust their lives accordingly to adapt in society."
I think the fact that you can even make that statement is because you live in a society that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Secondly, you expect the norm to adjust their lives to accept without any reservations and even celebrate something that is abnormal to them. Is it then surprising that they dig their heels in?

Should gays adapt their lives accordingly if they are in a Muslim society?

If I should accept another's way of life, should they not accept mine? (And i do know how that will work since my acceptance of their way conflicts with mine and vice versa)

If i criticize and ridicule their way of life, am I doing something wrong?

If I accept their way of life but choose to not involve them in mine, am i doing something wrong? When will it be wrong, when I do not invite them for a braai?

"I can have my delusions and still let people live their lives - if YOUR delusions say a group of people cannot exist, the problem is with you, not with them"
Once again philosophically.
If you and I chat long enough I'll find a group that you would feel cannot exist, does that implicitly mean that a.there is a problem and b. that problem lies with you?
Should groups that you do not like exist?
Should Nazis exist?

"This teacher let one child bring his entire career down, 60 years ago he may have been crying about a black child, and 100 years before that a girl."

Is gender pronouns, black oppression and female oppression the same thing though?
Are you not cheapening what happened to black people by equating their struggles to this?

My first desire is to have a civil conversation, but it makes it hard when they are rhetorical questions or knee-jerk one-liners. I am guilty of these as well.

I am thankful for the upbringing I have as I know it could have been a lot worse, but even then I know that it's far from perfect. Even thing that were taboo many years ago are completely nothing to us today, and we are not any worse off for it - one example being the tv. During apartheid I believe there was a massive resistance to it because even tho it was "new", it didn't mean things were going to be better. Now you can hardly find a building without a tv in it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing or ridiculing a way of life, but we have to remember this can be done constructively without infringing on a persons freedoms or taking away from who they are. As silly as I see prayer, if a person wants to spend 3 times a day praying, I think it should be allowed since it not only matters, it allows him to be the bets version of himself.

Even with "Nazis", I would have no issue with them existing were it not their sole mission to remove the less imperfect people from their society, although I suppose that can be true for any group once they gain enough power. There can be 100 groups in one community and they may not get along, they may even be dramatically opposed to one another - but so long as they ultimately respect freedom, their safety is guaranteed and so is the other groups. I exist, they exist.

Gender, race and feminism aren't the same, but depending on the time period, they're probably all being made a bigger deal than they really are. You must remember people used to post around lynched corpses naturally to take photos like they just accomplished something great, and people used to fight tooth and nail to not let races mix at school - many groups also believed women should not have the same education as men. While it pales in comparison to what happened in the past, I just wanted to highlight the ridiculousness of holding a grudge against a person(in this case a child) for something that has no purpose for why they're in school in the first place.

While I believe the teacher shouldn't have been suspended for his beliefs, I do question how he went about it and why he chose a child as his adversary to make his point. Even if we feel a child is wrong(regarding political ideology, worldview, beliefs), I don't think belittling them or threatening them will be constructive.

So ultimately, say I defend the Women's Communist League in my small town. I may not like them, I may not like communism, I might not even like women, but I feel that they should exist and be able to be who they are. If more people join them, how does that affect me? And if I bump into one in the supermarket, I'll remind myself that I'm there to buy groceries, not meet people.

 

[Gyre]

Good question, and I can think of only one answer but you aren't going to like the source.

Further to my other response, I just wanted to add a bit more.

I think treatment is required if something has a negative impact on a person, and this can be for anything. It seems that I pick on religion a lot but it's the only litmus test we really have and that everyone is familiar with. If you change out "God" or "Jesus" with other names or nouns, you end up with some very silly sentences, like "Elvis saved me", "Spongebob is good to us my friend", "I'll pray to Iron-Man for you".

This isn't to belittle faith or religion, it's just to highlight how alien something can sound to somebody who hasn't grown up around those terms or phrases, or who doesn't have an understanding of what the purpose of faith is. Right now the trans movement and ideology is alien to us, but the real purpose is that someone is trying to tell us that they feel different and want to be a different way - trans-ideology is probably the closest thing they have to explaining it.

If something, even if it it may seem ridiculous to us, has a positive impact on a person and those around them, why change them?

 

[neoprema]

Everyone is entitled to free speech, self-identification and their opinion. Until it goes against current trends for free speech, self-identification and opinion.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-gender-neutral-pronouns-JAILED-Ireland.html

Replace key word and change it to our race neutral terms. Goes to jail?