Islam as Primordiality

Jings

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Until we have proof of God's existence, religion is just a belief.
Not only religious people that believe in God and not all religions have the same view of God's nature, or have many gods, and in some religions they don't believe believe any gods. In light of that, won't religions likely stay a belief?
 

Splinter

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The concept of perfection is beyond my scope, not spirits. Spirits are around always. What do you deem as perfection?
Seriously - you really want to descend into this backwater of the definition? You made the statements about gods shortcomings and time. You back it up.
 

Jings

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Seriously - you really want to descend into this backwater of the definition? You made the statements about gods shortcomings and time. You back it up.
Never said anything about shortcomings. People have different views on what is perfection.

As to time, I do believe it's of no consequence. How else could it be known in advance that DJ... was going to propose to his fiance, or that a ferret was going to run amok, or that Hermans' wife was looking for a job, or that Gerrie would cheat a little on his diet, or that Wall would confess at a half arse attempt at reading my session writings et, al. The list just goes on. It's all courtesy of spirits. Only human experience is limited to the present. How much more proof do you want?
 
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saor

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Why would I punish them for not loving me?That would be psychotic and manipulative.
What's the point of hell then?
If I choose not to love God won't I suffer (in hell) for making that choice?

(Edit: Sorry, just realized this is a thread about Islam.)
 

saturnz

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What's the point of hell then?
If I choose not to love God won't I suffer (in hell) for making that choice?

(Edit: Sorry, just realized this is a thread about Islam.)
even better, if you don't believe in a God then hell does not exist, so no need to worry
 

Splinter

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Never said anything about shortcomings. People have different views on what is perfection.

As to time, I do believe it's of no consequence. How else could it be known in advance that DJ... was going to propose to his fiance, or that a ferret was going to run amok, or that Hermans' wife was looking for a job, or that Gerrie would cheat a little on his diet, or that Wall would confess at a half arse attempt at reading my session writings et, al. The list just goes on. It's all courtesy of spirits. Only human experience is limited to the present. How much more proof do you want?
Please tell me you are not being serious. This is your "proof" of spirits? Good golly and all other sorts of expressions of astonishment.

And what was your proof of time being an illusion, again?
 

Splinter

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Higher principles such as the length of a mans beard?

And another question - if we must submit to his guidance, why can he not show himself? Why is it always through a single person who claims to be a prophet, without any real evidence as to their credentials? Why only thousands of years ago, and to a tiny geographical speck, and not to all the other communities and ethnic groups across the world at that time?

Why the need to cause such conflict, mayhem and wars because of only appearing in such a small location?

And please don't give me the "we cannot understand his mysterious ways" speech.
I'm not frustrated at all. His refusal/inability to answer my questions says quite a bit to those reading.
Hi wayfarer. Patiently waiting.
 

wayfarer

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To trust God in the light is nothing, but to trust him in the dark - that is faith. (C.H. Spurgeon)

God has revealed himself through a number of ways, such as via His revelations. For many an open-minded person, this is evidence enough of God's reality, and I am personally acquainted with several individuals who came to Islam in this way.

He also reveals Himself via all of creation, it being a myriad of signposts pointing to Him, and the Quran calls us to reflect on these signs. The word for "world", in Arabic, is 'alam, which according to its etymology, means "instrument of coming know". Coming to know what, ultimately? God, of course.

However, I can appreciate that the above important points may summarily be dismissed by a God-denier. Why does God not display Himself, personally, to the masses?

In the original post, I emphasised that one's loving devotion to the Creator of all that exists must be done of one's own volition. It cannot be any other way. One is further required to subdue the ego, tame the baser self, and as mentioned before, live for others and higher principles, and not just for oneself. This means that those noble dispositions are not attained by the stroke of a brush, but through struggle against oneself, in order to give God and His creation their dues. This struggle makes those noble states, once attained, all the more consequential.

Were God to manifest Himself to us, as He does to the angels, and we beheld Him in all His Glory, our devout surrender would be automatic. This would seriously compromise our free will, and the meaningfulness of our love. The phrase "Life is a test" is not a mere cliche, it is a certain truth. We are tested in our faith. Where is the faith, if God shows Himself?

What if the skeptic were to behold a miraculous vision today, where God shows Himself to the masses, what would be said? Probably a profound weather phenomenon yet to be explained by future science! Mass hallucination! It didn't happen! In fact, people who do claim to have experience with God are disparaged as psychotic deviants, nutters.

To end off, it has been said that the first step for the sincere seeker is to close the eyes and open the heart. I ask the denier this question: is it the case that God does not show Himself, or is it the case that you refuse to see Him?
 
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Jings

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Please tell me you are not being serious. This is your "proof" of spirits? Good golly and all other sorts of expressions of astonishment.

And what was your proof of time being an illusion, again?
Some people don't see proof even if it slaps them in the face. I guess you're one of those people.
 

Splinter

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To trust God in the light is nothing, but to trust him in the dark - that is faith. (C.H. Spurgeon)

God has revealed himself through a number of ways, such as via His revelations. For many an open-minded person, this is evidence enough of God's reality, and I am personally acquainted with several individuals who came to Islam in this way.

He also reveals Himself via all of creation, it being a myriad of signposts pointing to Him, and the Quran calls us to reflect on these signs. The word for "world", in Arabic, is aalam, which according to its etymology, means "instrument of coming know". Coming to know what, ultimately? God, of course.

However, I can appreciate that the above important points may summarily be dismissed by a God-denier. Why does God not display Himself, personally, to the masses?

In the original post, I emphasised that one's loving devotion to the Creator of all that exists must be done of one's own volition. It cannot be any other way. One is further required to subdue the ego, tame the baser self, and as mentioned before, live for others and higher principles, and not just for oneself. This means that those noble dispositions are not attained by the stroke of a brush, but through struggle against oneself, in order to give God and His creation their dues. This struggle makes those noble states, once attained, all the more consequential.

Were God to manifest Himself to us, as He does to the angels, and we beheld Him in all His Glory, our devout surrender would be automatic. This would seriously compromise our free will, and the meaningfulness of our love. The phrase "Life is test" is not a mere cliche, it is a certain truth. We are tested in our faith. Where is the faith, if God shows Himself?

What if the skeptic were to behold a miraculous vision today, where God shows Himself to the masses, what would be said? Probably a profound weather phenomenon yet to be explained by future science! Mass hallucination! It didn't happen! In fact, people who do claim to have experience with God are disparaged as psychotic deviants, nutters.

To end off, it has been said that the first step for the sincere seeker is to close the eyes and open the heart. I ask the denier this question: is it the case that God does not show Himself, or is it the case that you refuse to see Him?
So, to summarise, one must have faith in a god that doesn't show itself, to demonstrate one has faith. A statement that has been created by mankind to explain its absence? "It cannot be any other way", as said above. @wayfarer - please let me know if god itself said this.

Further, to show itself is to remove free will - yet those who exercise such free will and do not believe are "god-deniers" according to you? Where is the free will in that, if you label people such?

And then you go on to say that even should god reveal itself, you state that it would be dismissed forthwith with disparaging comments from the atheists. Hmm. @imaranpanji - this is what you call a cop out.

By the way, wayfarer, you still haven't answered the question as to why the visitation to a few individuals only, in an isolated geographical location, when it would have prevented thousands (if not millions) of deaths by just appearing once to folks all over the globe.
 

Jings

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What proof of spirits has ever slapped anyone in the face?
So far people on this forum haven't really openly admitted it, preferring to do it in the background. Some people won't confirm, especially those that are non believers. Take for example, Wall. I could hear him afterwards in my head, complaining. Never heard someone mumble so loudly that I couldn't actually hear what he was saying. But anyway, he admitted to reading only a paragraph. This is how it started on 26/10/2016:

does anyone believe in Jingaling's ****?
Wall then proceeded to admit he only read a sample, on 26/10/2016:

I gave up a paragraph in..
Since I would read his post in the future, the information already come through beforehand on 18/10/2016. Note it's not just random. His surname is actually there, and his original post was in the form of a question.

Make a move, Singh. Take a magic lesson. Just a sample, ask her.
There are many, many more examples and I even hear a few of them accusing each other of telling me something, in the background.

But I really don't mind the naysayers because there are people who are interesting and want to explore and develop their abilities with me. Abilities that will ensure our survival on earth for a whole megennium still to come.
 

Splinter

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To trust God in the light is nothing, but to trust him in the dark - that is faith. (C.H. Spurgeon)

God has revealed himself through a number of ways, such as via His revelations. For many an open-minded person, this is evidence enough of God's reality, and I am personally acquainted with several individuals who came to Islam in this way.

He also reveals Himself via all of creation, it being a myriad of signposts pointing to Him, and the Quran calls us to reflect on these signs. The word for "world", in Arabic, is aalam, which according to its etymology, means "instrument of coming know". Coming to know what, ultimately? God, of course.

However, I can appreciate that the above important points may summarily be dismissed by a God-denier. Why does God not display Himself, personally, to the masses?

In the original post, I emphasised that one's loving devotion to the Creator of all that exists must be done of one's own volition. It cannot be any other way. One is further required to subdue the ego, tame the baser self, and as mentioned before, live for others and higher principles, and not just for oneself. This means that those noble dispositions are not attained by the stroke of a brush, but through struggle against oneself, in order to give God and His creation their dues. This struggle makes those noble states, once attained, all the more consequential.

Were God to manifest Himself to us, as He does to the angels, and we beheld Him in all His Glory, our devout surrender would be automatic. This would seriously compromise our free will, and the meaningfulness of our love. The phrase "Life is test" is not a mere cliche, it is a certain truth. We are tested in our faith. Where is the faith, if God shows Himself?

What if the skeptic were to behold a miraculous vision today, where God shows Himself to the masses, what would be said? Probably a profound weather phenomenon yet to be explained by future science! Mass hallucination! It didn't happen! In fact, people who do claim to have experience with God are disparaged as psychotic deviants, nutters.

To end off, it has been said that the first step for the sincere seeker is to close the eyes and open the heart. I ask the denier this question: is it the case that God does not show Himself, or is it the case that you refuse to see Him?
So, to summarise, one must have faith in a god that doesn't show itself, to demonstrate one has faith. A statement that has been created by mankind to explain its absence? "It cannot be any other way", as said above. @wayfarer - please let me know if god itself said this.

Further, to show itself is to remove free will - yet those who exercise such free will and do not believe are "god-deniers" according to you? Where is the free will in that, if you label people such?

And then you go on to say that even should god reveal itself, you state that it would be dismissed forthwith with disparaging comments from the atheists. Hmm. @imaranpanji - this is what you call a cop out.

By the way, wayfarer, you still haven't answered the question as to why the visitation to a few individuals only, in an isolated geographical location, when it would have prevented thousands (if not millions) of deaths by just appearing once to folks all over the globe.
@wafarer - still waiting.
 

alloytoo

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By the way, wayfarer, you still haven't answered the question as to why the visitation to a few individuals only, in an isolated geographical location, when it would have prevented thousands (if not millions) of deaths by just appearing once to folks all over the globe.
This.

An omnipotent omniscient god wouldn't require evangelists of any stripe, an omnipotent omniscient god's existence would be self-evident.
 

DMNknight

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So, to summarise, one must have faith in a god that doesn't show itself, to demonstrate one has faith. A statement that has been created by mankind to explain its absence? "It cannot be any other way", as said above. @wayfarer - please let me know if god itself said this.

Further, to show itself is to remove free will - yet those who exercise such free will and do not believe are "god-deniers" according to you? Where is the free will in that, if you label people such?

And then you go on to say that even should god reveal itself, you state that it would be dismissed forthwith with disparaging comments from the atheists. Hmm. @imaranpanji - this is what you call a cop out.

By the way, wayfarer, you still haven't answered the question as to why the visitation to a few individuals only, in an isolated geographical location, when it would have prevented thousands (if not millions) of deaths by just appearing once to folks all over the globe.
If I may.

Given that, a being of such power and intelligence as to create and then erupt a singularity, form by will, the laws of physics so that galaxies and planets would coalesce, to form the cradle upon which carbon replication and finally DNA would bear fruit in Human beings...

Given such a being, they would know as I logically do, that in showing itself free will would no longer be a factor in which love is given. Free will will essentially turn into slavery because of the absolute knowledge of punishment to follow should one not obey.

It is simply impossible to separate a truly good person from a miserable wretch when both of them KNOW the punishment for not believing. The truly good person would not care that such proof existed, whereas it would consume the life of the wretch.
And in so doing, remove the ability of the wretch to save himself by free will, because he is already committed to a path in which he is damned.
And yes, there are those who are faced with the truth will simply not acknowledge it as such because it doesn't suit their world view.

We continually question God why he allows bad things to happen to people, why he shows himself to a select few, rather than to millions in order to save lives. The simple answer is that God is not in it to save your life, but to save your soul. (whatever that may be)

I assume God knows that the amount of souls that are saved vs those that are lost will be very skewed in favor of those that will be lost. Eternal damnation could be something as simple as being wiped from the existence of the universe as if one never existed, simply because they never mastered being free to choose.

Very few people will master the power of having free will and I honestly think that those are the people who will be saved.
Not because they needed saving, but because they already saved themselves.

Free will, it truly is your choice.
 

Splinter

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If I may.
Before I respond fully, may I ask what the result is, according to Islam, if one exercised their freewill and chose not to believe in Allah. Upon and after death that is (and a peaceful one in old age).
 

Splinter

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Free will, it truly is your choice.
Another thing - if someone is born into a muslim family, I assume it is logical that they are taught Islam. What happens if this free will is then exercised and this religion is not accepted? I think there is a specific term for this - apostate? What happens to these free-willed apostates?
 

DMNknight

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I am not speaking on behalf of Islam really, apologies. However I find this conundrum among all religions, not just Islam.

Believing in Allah and practicing his preachings (to me) are one and the same if you don't believe in Allah and still practice his preachings.
The Net result is that you are a good human being to yourself and others. It is also a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy because to have your soul saved for eternal life, you need to follow the preachings anyways. It is very circular :)

You could in essence, believe in Allah and still be a terrible person. The first does not save your soul and the second most certainly does not.

I wouldn't know on the front of Muslim families and the rejection of religion by a child. However, the above still very much holds true don't you think?
Every religion has a warning about judging people. It is a very human thing. Personally, the term apostate or agnostic (or other) are very human things which causes one to judge. These are not godly words but human and in so must be taken with a grain of salt with an eye for the truth and belief in kindness.

Religion does not save your soul. It is merely the information and guidance required to get you to save your own soul and help others with theirs.
 

Splinter

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I am not speaking on behalf of Islam really, apologies. However I find this conundrum among all religions, not just Islam.

Believing in Allah and practicing his preachings (to me) are one and the same if you don't believe in Allah and still practice his preachings.
The Net result is that you are a good human being to yourself and others. It is also a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy because to have your soul saved for eternal life, you need to follow the preachings anyways. It is very circular :)

You could in essence, believe in Allah and still be a terrible person. The first does not save your soul and the second most certainly does not.

I wouldn't know on the front of Muslim families and the rejection of religion by a child. However, the above still very much holds true don't you think?
Every religion has a warning about judging people. It is a very human thing. Personally, the term apostate or agnostic (or other) are very human things which causes one to judge. These are not godly words but human and in so must be taken with a grain of salt with an eye for the truth and belief in kindness.

Religion does not save your soul. It is merely the information and guidance required to get you to save your own soul and help others with theirs.
Umm, this is a thread about islam.

Also, another circular thing to mention is the fact that you are circling around my questions without actually answering them.

I thought the term apostate (riddah) was very clearly defined in the Quran as well as what the consequences were for it - how do you claim it's a "man-made" word? Or are you just playing the semantic game because I didn't use the Arabic version of the word?
 
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