Islam as Primordiality

Xarog

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:crylaugh:

Splinter is getting the same argument in this thread now, for the same reasons.
 

Fury05

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Umm, this is a thread about islam.

Also, another circular thing to mention is the fact that you are circling around my questions without actually answering them.

I thought the term apostate (riddah) was very clearly defined in the Quran as well as what the consequences were for it - how do you claim it's a "man-made" word? Or are you just playing the semantic game because I didn't use the Arabic version of the word?
Really?
 

DMNknight

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Umm, this is a thread about islam.

Also, another circular thing to mention is the fact that you are circling around my questions without actually answering them.

I thought the term apostate (riddah) was very clearly defined in the Quran as well as what the consequences were for it - how do you claim it's a "man-made" word? Or are you just playing the semantic game because I didn't use the Arabic version of the word?
I told you that I am not answering on behalf of Islam, but that your questions are universal in that they are asked in other religions too.

Further than that I cannot answer you much more than what I have without pretending expertise I am not fully fluent in. (i.e. Islam)
However you do seem to need answers, but why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me.

Religion and Faith are fairly simplistic as they deal with the soul and the soul alone. The distinction of man made made religious laws and God made religious laws are pretty clear for those that want to see them.
Man made laws (in religion) deal with earthly consequences with no real claim against the soul.
God made laws simply deal with the soul and nothing more.
 

Splinter

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I told you that I am not answering on behalf of Islam, but that your questions are universal in that they are asked in other religions too.

Further than that I cannot answer you much more than what I have without pretending expertise I am not fully fluent in. (i.e. Islam)
However you do seem to need answers, but why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me.
Religion and Faith are fairly simplistic as they deal with the soul and the soul alone. The distinction of man made made religious laws and God made religious laws are pretty clear for those that want to see them.
Man made laws (in religion) deal with earthly consequences with no real claim against the soul.
God made laws simply deal with the soul and nothing more.
Let me be frank with you - I think you are just pulling a flowery con job here. Don't tell me what my questions relate to. I will tell you what my questions are. And I am asking them of wayfarer in a post he created about Islam - not universal issues.

So all you are trying to do is deflect.

Your condescending and disingenuous "why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me" is regarded with the contempt it deserves.

Or you can explain to me how people killed for apostasy, with respect to Islam, would concur with you that this is "minutiae".
 

Fury05

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Just going on what has been said in other threads. But feel free to correct me.
There are no clear consequences for apostasy. There have been numerous threads where this has been discussed time and time again.
 

Splinter

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There are no clear consequences for apostasy. There have been numerous threads where this has been discussed time and time again.
Link? I thought there have been many, many people killed because of this? That muslims today do not dare to renounce religion due to fear of the consequences?
 

Fury05

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Link? I thought there have been many, many people killed because of this? That muslims today do not dare to renounce religion due to fear of the consequences?
You made the claim that Quran says X now you want me to prove you wrong, in any case

Ask a Muslim guy anything

If you want to know what apostasy is, Wayfarer gives a simplified and concise answer here:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=9428572

But a direct answer to your question is nothing happens and nothing should happen, that is between yourself and your creator.

106. Whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a great torment. (Chapter 16 verse 106)

There is no prescribed earthly punishment for apostasy in the Quran whatsoever that I'm aware of.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=16546215.

What Muslims do and what the Quran says are different things. No one denies people are killed for leaving Islam, it happens, people are nuts. Do your own research and use the source you quote, the Quran. See if you can find a place it mentions killing anyone.
 

Splinter

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You made the claim that Quran says X now you want me to prove you wrong, in any case


What Muslims do and what the Quran says are different things. No one denies people are killed for leaving Islam, it happens, people are nuts. Do your own research and use the source you quote, the Quran. See if you can find a place it mentions killing anyone.
Fair enough, I do concede that I was just remembering things from other threads, and may have misspoken somewhat. However, I will prefer not to look at something provided by wayfarer as he is far to afterglow for me.

So, quick search on Google gives me this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

It seems pretty impartial and does indicate that their is debate and different interpretations amongst Islamic scholars. However, this does not mean that apostasy does not have consequences.

And it seems it is the hadith that states punishments for apostasy more clearly. To folks like me, Quran, hadiths etc are one and the same in being the tenets of Islam.

A pertinent paragraph or two:

"According to Abdul Rashied Omar, the majority of modern Muslim scholars continue to hold the traditional view that the death penalty for apostasy is required by the two primary sources of Sharia - the Quran and the Hadiths.[13] Others argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment,[18][19][20][21] inconsistent with the Qur'anic injunctions such as Quran 88:21-22[22] or "no compulsion in religion"

"As such moderate Muslims reject such penalty.[22] According to critics, the death penalty or other punishment for apostasy in Islam is a violation of universal human rights, and an issue of freedom of faith and conscience"

However:

"Under current laws in Islamic countries, the prescribed punishment for the apostate (or murtadd مرتد) ranges from execution to prison term to no punishment.[28][29] Sharia courts in some countries use civil code to void the Muslim apostate’s marriage and deny child custody rights, as well as his or her inheritance rights for apostasy.[30] In the years 1985-2006, four individuals were executed by governments for apostasy from Islam: "one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992."[23] Twenty-three Muslim-majority countries, as of 2013, additionally covered apostasy in Islam through their criminal laws.[31]"

So, I will retract my statement about many deaths (although there have been some) and Quran; but my point still stands that their is not much free will involved where rejection of Islam carries such consequences. And this excludes the "soft" or intangible ones such as being ostracized by family and community should one choose not to follow Islam.
 

Fury05

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Fair enough, I do concede that I was just remembering things from other threads, and may have misspoken somewhat. However, I will prefer not to look at something provided by wayfarer as he is far to afterglow for me.

So, quick search on Google gives me this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

It seems pretty impartial and does indicate that their is debate and different interpretations amongst Islamic scholars. However, this does not mean that apostasy does not have consequences.

And it seems it is the hadith that states punishments for apostasy more clearly. To folks like me, Quran, hadiths etc are one and the same in being the tenets of Islam.

A pertinent paragraph or two:

"According to Abdul Rashied Omar, the majority of modern Muslim scholars continue to hold the traditional view that the death penalty for apostasy is required by the two primary sources of Sharia - the Quran and the Hadiths.[13] Others argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment,[18][19][20][21] inconsistent with the Qur'anic injunctions such as Quran 88:21-22[22] or "no compulsion in religion"

"As such moderate Muslims reject such penalty.[22] According to critics, the death penalty or other punishment for apostasy in Islam is a violation of universal human rights, and an issue of freedom of faith and conscience"

However:

"Under current laws in Islamic countries, the prescribed punishment for the apostate (or murtadd مرتد) ranges from execution to prison term to no punishment.[28][29] Sharia courts in some countries use civil code to void the Muslim apostate’s marriage and deny child custody rights, as well as his or her inheritance rights for apostasy.[30] In the years 1985-2006, four individuals were executed by governments for apostasy from Islam: "one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992."[23] Twenty-three Muslim-majority countries, as of 2013, additionally covered apostasy in Islam through their criminal laws.[31]"

So, I will retract my statement about many deaths (although there have been some) and Quran; but my point still stands that their is not much free will involved where rejection of Islam carries such consequences. And this excludes the "soft" or intangible ones such as being ostracized by family and community should one choose not to follow Islam.
There is still free will. Any consequences relating to ostracizing is simply that, a consequence. Whether the consequence is right or wrong (it is wrong) will be debated between conservative Islamic communities and the rest of society without taking into account the vast difference in social structures, cultural differences etc. That being said you cannot say there is no free will due to the consequences (remind you again this is highly debatable).

In certain Islamic countries they regard religion as part and parcel of the national identity, and therefore forsaking the religion is to commit treason against the state. In modern times this is an absurd way of thinking as the countries are not at war with anyone (generally). In this instance yes your free will is taken away for fear of imprisonment, death etc. This does not mean it is a practice condoned by Islam, there are cultural aspects, literal interpretation, and other factors at play. By all means stand together against this evil practice but let's not go and bundle it together with everything else and call it Islam.

Edit: note that I never claimed Apostasy has no consequences, I challenged your claim that the Quran has clear consequences for it.
 

Splinter

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There is still free will. Any consequences relating to ostracizing is simply that, a consequence. Whether the consequence is right or wrong (it is wrong) will be debated between conservative Islamic communities and the rest of society without taking into account the vast difference in social structures, cultural differences etc. That being said you cannot say there is no free will due to the consequences (remind you again this is highly debatable).

In certain Islamic countries they regard religion as part and parcel of the national identity, and therefore forsaking the religion is to commit treason against the state. In modern times this is an absurd way of thinking as the countries are not at war with anyone (generally). In this instance yes your free will is taken away for fear of imprisonment, death etc. This does not mean it is a practice condoned by Islam, there are cultural aspects, literal interpretation, and other factors at play. By all means stand together against this evil practice but let's not go and bundle it together with everything else and call it Islam.

Edit: note that I never claimed Apostasy has no consequences, I challenged your claim that the Quran has clear consequences for it.
Yep, and I conceded that the Quran has no clear consequences for it. But it does not change the fact that this lack of clarity hardly ever falls on the side of the apostate.

But what about the "Hadith's"?
 

Fury05

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Yep, and I conceded that the Quran has no clear consequences for it. But it does not change the fact that this lack of clarity hardly ever falls on the side of the apostate.

But what about the "Hadith's"?
What people do is ultimately either good or evil. You can take the most innocent thing and twist it to suit ones agenda, at the end of the day that's the crux of it.

The Hadiths are not something one takes lightly as it is very open to interpretation and needs to be viewed in its context. There is an entire science dedicated to the study and interpretation of Hadith. The fact that there is a dispute between scholars on the consequences of apostasy is proof enough that it is not as clear cut as some people make it seem. Again it comes back to the fact at the end of the day people play into their predispositions when using Hadith to justify their actions.

Edit: I also disagree that the lack of clarity does not fall on the side of the apostate. Your source in the previous post alone attests to that fact. Only 4 people killed (Despicable) vs the multitude of people who have left Islam and yet nothing has happened to them (generally). Sure in some countries like Saudi it might be impossible to leave Islam without consequences, however the bulk of the world is not Saudi (thank God).
 
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DMNknight

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Let me be frank with you - I think you are just pulling a flowery con job here. Don't tell me what my questions relate to. I will tell you what my questions are. And I am asking them of wayfarer in a post he created about Islam - not universal issues.

So all you are trying to do is deflect.

Your condescending and disingenuous "why it is that you're getting bogged down in the minutiae of these rather shallow questions is beyond me" is regarded with the contempt it deserves.

Or you can explain to me how people killed for apostasy, with respect to Islam, would concur with you that this is "minutiae".
I have no other motive than to try and answer your questions. You are very focused, by my observation of your questions, on the things which are clear to me are man written into the scriptures. You are also focused in this short discussion on the consequences of rejecting the faith you are indoctrinated in.

I would hazard a guess that these are important questions to you hence the dogged pursuit of an answer. The short answer is, Islam is a religion of kindness and peace. Religion and god deal with matters of the soul.
The growth of a soul is determined by the actions it takes while in physical form. It's motivations, thoughts and actions leave indelible marks upon it, which it will one day be judged.

Do yourself a favor and read up on cognitive bias and open your eyes on how it colors religion like a Picasso painting.
Once you are aware of how people try to control or influence other people, then you will be able to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures as easily as one can see the canvas without the paint.

All I am pointing out, is that you are getting caught up in man made consequences for actions (yes, they are very rarely fair), instead of the ones which really matter and affect your soul.
I am trying to highlight the importance of the decisions upon which thoughts you dwell over.
 

Splinter

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What people do is ultimately either good or evil. You can take the most innocent thing and twist it to suit ones agenda, at the end of the day that's the crux of it.

The Hadiths are not something one takes lightly as it is very open to interpretation and needs to be viewed in its context. There is an entire science dedicated to the study and interpretation of Hadith. The fact that there is a dispute between scholars on the consequences of apostasy is proof enough that it is not as clear cut as some people make it seem. Again it comes back to the fact at the end of the day people play into their predispositions when using Hadith to justify their actions.

Edit: I also disagree that the lack of clarity does not fall on the side of the apostate. Your source in the previous post alone attests to that fact. Only 4 people killed (Despicable) vs the multitude of people who have left Islam and yet nothing has happened to them (generally). Sure in some countries like Saudi it might be impossible to leave Islam without consequences, however the bulk of the world is not Saudi (thank God).
What multitude? care to expand?
 

Splinter

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I have no other motive than to try and answer your questions. You are very focused, by my observation of your questions, on the things which are clear to me are man written into the scriptures. You are also focused in this short discussion on the consequences of rejecting the faith you are indoctrinated in.

I would hazard a guess that these are important questions to you hence the dogged pursuit of an answer. The short answer is, Islam is a religion of kindness and peace. Religion and god deal with matters of the soul.
The growth of a soul is determined by the actions it takes while in physical form. It's motivations, thoughts and actions leave indelible marks upon it, which it will one day be judged.

Do yourself a favor and read up on cognitive bias and open your eyes on how it colors religion like a Picasso painting.
Once you are aware of how people try to control or influence other people, then you will be able to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures as easily as one can see the canvas without the paint.

All I am pointing out, is that you are getting caught up in man made consequences for actions (yes, they are very rarely fair), instead of the ones which really matter and affect your soul.
I am trying to highlight the importance of the decisions upon which thoughts you dwell over.
So now you are answering on behalf of Islam? Cool. So Islam is a religion of kindness and peace? Strange that Sunni and Shia muslims seem to be killing each other almost daily. And that most of the conflicts in the world today are in the name of this religion. But I digress.

Obviously I'm caught up in the man-made consequences for actions. I don't believe in deities that hide in the sky and refuse to show their faces. I am very intrigued though how you claim to know how to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures. So you saying that some of the scriptures are man made then?

Another question, this idea that god didn't and doesn't appear to us in order that we have free will - is this stated in the scriptures, or is it a man made concept?

Oh yes - I don't think anyone answered what the post-death consequence is for being a "god-denier" according to Islam?
 

Fury05

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What multitude? care to expand?
I don't think there is an objective study done or verifiable stats collected on people who have left Islam. I am making an assumption based on my own experiences. The claims of people leaving Islam made by anti Islamic or anti Religious groups cannot be viewed as objective and therefore I will refrain from quoting them.

Even if we were to assume my assumption is incorrect, as I pointed out the minimal number of people killed for apostasy is relatively small (but not insignificant, see my explanation in post #70). My assumption is then based on the fact that if what we are told is true, that many Muslims leave Islam due to whatever reason and get to speak out as an ex-Muslim, we can then assume that generally people are not killed for apostasy. As I indicated in post #70, ostracism from their community and family is another debate. I'm sure you can find many testimonies from ex Muslims fearing for their life etc. You would however find that on the other side of the coin there would be no benefit (or catchy headline) from speaking out as an ex Muslim where nothing had happened to you.

Without an objective study, we are left with assumptions based on nothing really. If you know of a study that I have not seen please direct me to it.
 

DMNknight

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So now you are answering on behalf of Islam? Cool. So Islam is a religion of kindness and peace? Strange that Sunni and Shia muslims seem to be killing each other almost daily. And that most of the conflicts in the world today are in the name of this religion. But I digress.

Obviously I'm caught up in the man-made consequences for actions. I don't believe in deities that hide in the sky and refuse to show their faces. I am very intrigued though how you claim to know how to discern the hand of god or man in the scriptures. So you saying that some of the scriptures are man made then?

Another question, this idea that god didn't and doesn't appear to us in order that we have free will - is this stated in the scriptures, or is it a man made concept?

Oh yes - I don't think anyone answered what the post-death consequence is for being a "god-denier" according to Islam?
Having read the Quran cover to cover, I can offer some insight, having done so with other religious texts.

The Sunhi and Shia muslims are similar in localised (and therefore man made) laws in how the religion should be practised. I would point out that christianity, buddhism and hinduism suffer from exactly the same division.
Religion (to date) has a VERY bad track record because people use it to kill and murder with impunity. In fact, religion to date has been the biggest cause of wars and human killings, outranking even World War 1 & 2 combined.

Religion and the people that practise it have far from stellar records.

I have explained several times in how I discern the hand of man or god in the scriptures, I don't think I'll be repeating myself.

The appearance of god at the will of man, even of men of absolute belief, collapses the idea of absolute free will because the choice to believe is no longer a belief but an absolute fact.
Take for example, a wife who says to her husband "If you love me..."
If he does as she asks, she will be undermining her belief in his love for her because did he do it because he loves her? or did he do so because that what he should do if he loves her?

Reasonably so, the collapse of belief into certainy, the appearance of god to man. After the appearance, you actions will be determined by a concrete knowledge that if you were not to do so, you would go to hell.
This would not make good people, just people that behaved like good people.

It is most definitely a god made scripture, because the nature of free will existed before man did. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of a universe...
 

Splinter

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Having read the Quran cover to cover, I can offer some insight, having done so with other religious texts.
So, before when you claimed a couple of times you were not answering on behalf of islam, you were making a wee fib?

The Sunhi and Shia muslims are similar in localised (and therefore man made) laws in how the religion should be practised. I would point out that christianity, buddhism and hinduism suffer from exactly the same division.
Religion (to date) has a VERY bad track record because people use it to kill and murder with impunity. In fact, religion to date has been the biggest cause of wars and human killings, outranking even World War 1 & 2 combined.

Religion and the people that practise it have far from stellar records....
What's the point of this? Why bring in other religions (although no need to preach to the converted on this point). I was just digressing on your point that Islam is a religion of "peace and kindness". I do notice how you avoided my point about most conflicts in the world today involving Islam (and not other religions).


I have explained several times in how I discern the hand of man or god in the scriptures, I don't think I'll be repeating myself....
Perhaps you should repeat the reading of the actual question I posed. I don't care how you claim to do it, I am querying the fact that your claim seems to indicate that some of the content of the scriptures is man-made (and hence not the word of god..)

The appearance of god at the will of man, even of men of absolute belief, collapses the idea of absolute free will because the choice to believe is no longer a belief but an absolute fact.
Take for example, a wife who says to her husband "If you love me..."
If he does as she asks, she will be undermining her belief in his love for her because did he do it because he loves her? or did he do so because that what he should do if he loves her?

Reasonably so, the collapse of belief into certainy, the appearance of god to man. After the appearance, you actions will be determined by a concrete knowledge that if you were not to do so, you would go to hell.
This would not make good people, just people that behaved like good people....
Besides the gawky nature of what you post, what exactly are you trying to answer here?


It is most definitely a god made scripture, because the nature of free will existed before man did. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble of a universe...
Likewise with this part of your post - what are you answering? It's a simple question - does the scripture itself say that god did not appear, nor will he again, in order that we have free will?


And still waiting on the answer as to what the Quran states are the consequences for not believing in god (upon death).
 
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DMNknight

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So, before when you claimed a couple of times you were not answering on behalf of islam, you were making a wee fib?
You're very determined to see things your way and be as confrontational as possible. Possibly a troll, I don't really care.
Speaking on behalf of Islam is not the same as having read the Quran from cover to cover, as well as a few other religious bibles/scriptures/books/etc. It grants me a certain amount of insight into a religion without making me an expert.
Just like reading a recipe book doesn't make me a master chef.

What's the point of this? Why bring in other religions (although no need to preach to the converted on this point). I was just digressing on your point that Islam is a religion of "peace and kindness". I do notice how you avoided my point about most conflicts in the world today involving Islam (and not other religions).
Other religions suffer from the same human flaws as does Islam. All of the religions that I have read the bibles of, just generally say "Be a good person". Murder, war and everything that leads from those things are not being good to your fellow man and therefore not very religious.
Coming back to your original beef with Free will and "not" choosing Islam. It is not very Islamic (or other) to ostracize or murder someone who does not believe. It's a very human control thing and not good for the soul at all.

You're very focused on answers from the Islamic faith (as if you're very determined to attack it), when the answers are equally true and can be found, elsewhere.

Perhaps you should repeat the reading of the actual question I posed. I don't care how you claim to do it, I am querying the fact that your claim seems to indicate that some of the content of the scriptures is man-made (and hence not the word of god..)
Of course there are parts of scripture written and influenced by man. I think the first post in this topic even says as much...

Besides the gawky nature of what you post, what exactly are you trying to answer here?

Likewise with this part of your post - what are you answering? It's a simple question - does the scripture itself say that god did not appear, nor will he again, in order that we have free will?
You're presenting as if you are finding it hard to grasp the fundamental principle of the nature of Free will.

And still waiting on the answer as to what the Quran states are the consequences for not believing in god.
I can point out that the christian god did show a small part of his back to Moses and it left him blind for a couple of days. If you want to get all caught up in the details you can google it :)
I can't say what it says in the counter part of the similar texts in the Quran.

What is your purpose in this post? Right now you're reading as if you're angry with islam for expelling you from your life because you do not believe in the religion you were brought up in. Seeking ways to attack and belittle it.

Are you really here at the behest of your soul, or to try and corner a religious person in the paradoxes of their faith?
 

Splinter

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You're very determined to see things your way and be as confrontational as possible. Possibly a troll, I don't really care.
Speaking on behalf of Islam is not the same as having read the Quran from cover to cover, as well as a few other religious bibles/scriptures/books/etc. It grants me a certain amount of insight into a religion without making me an expert.
Just like reading a recipe book doesn't make me a master chef.
Oh, here we go again. "Troll", "angry", "attack and belittle". The usual cop-outs

*hears the sound Imranpanji's brain exploding in the distance :D*

Btw - is this "confrontation" not just how you perceive it to be?


Anyway, so you are not an expert on religion now. Yet you made pretty absolute statements previously about religion, faith and souls. Are these statements now, by your own admission, non-expert opinions then?




Other religions suffer from the same human flaws as does Islam. All of the religions that I have read the bibles of, just generally say "Be a good person". Murder, war and everything that leads from those things are not being good to your fellow man and therefore not very religious.
Coming back to your original beef with Free will and "not" choosing Islam. It is not very Islamic (or other) to ostracize or murder someone who does not believe. It's a very human control thing and not good for the soul at all.
I've parked this issue for the moment (the apostasy thing). But what has it got to do with my point that you avoided my comment on Islam being involved in most of todays conflicts? Looks like you avoiding it again...

You're very focused on answers from the Islamic faith (as if you're very determined to attack it), when the answers are equally true and can be found, elsewhere.
This is a thread about Islam. You're very focused on defending Islam, it seems. Strange, you keep on claiming you are not here on behalf of Islam, but your every post screams otherwise. Like I said before, I find your behavior somewhat deceitful.

Go read other threads; you will see I am pretty much the same when other religions are the topic of discussion.



Of course there are parts of scripture written and influenced by man. I think the first post in this topic even says as much...
So, you were going on before about ignoring the man made stuff and focusing on gods word. In other words, by your own admission, some of the scriptures are suspect. Would that be correct?

Next, can you explain to me how you say you are not a religious expert, but then claim you can determine gods words versus mens in the scriptures. Has anyone else ever claimed this ability?

You're presenting as if you are finding it hard to grasp the fundamental principle of the nature of Free will.
say what?

I can point out that the christian god did show a small part of his back to Moses and it left him blind for a couple of days. If you want to get all caught up in the details you can google it :)
I can't say what it says in the counter part of the similar texts in the Quran.
Seriously dude, can you just answer "yes" or "no". Does the scripture state the reason that god has not shown his face is because of concern for mans free will?

What is your purpose in this post? Right now you're reading as if you're angry with islam for expelling you from your life because you do not believe in the religion you were brought up in. Seeking ways to attack and belittle it.
It's pretty obvious what my purpose is. The defence raised by you and others as to why this god is hiding in the sky was to preserve mans free will. If this is a man made concept, then it is no defence at all - and is also subject to your earlier dismissal of "man made" influences.

And "angry"? LOL. Nee wat, I just don't like nonsense being spouted as the truth.


Are you really here at the behest of your soul, or to try and corner a religious person in the paradoxes of their faith?
WTF? What do you not understand about me being an atheist? "behest of my soul". Good golly.

But if you still don't get it, I am here because I don't like certain threads becoming pulpits for proselytizing without being challenged or debated.
 
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